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  1. #21
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Oh, it IS expressed or described in some way. But technically, does it have to be articulated or defined?

    I place "living something out" as higher than "talking about living it out."

    Analysis is always a step away from life, it's a step back. You are no longer living or Being, you are Talking About Living/Being.

    That's the point here. Even if you cannot articular the differences, you don't necessarily need to be able to. Analysis is secondary to life.
    Well, that's probably because you're a Perceiving type. I agree that it's necessary to live your life out, but I don't really enjoy it so much while it's happening, I get the most pleasure out of analyzing it later on. I often go into a new experience with the attitude that I'll enjoy analyzing it's meaning later. You have to understand that I think symbolically, and if it can't be articulated or defined by something, it doesn't even exist for me, in my mind. My favorite things in life are expression and conversation regarding ideas and/or feelings.

  2. #22
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Well, that's probably because you're a Perceiving type. I agree that it's necessary to live your life out, but I don't really enjoy it so much while it's happening, I get the most pleasure out of analyzing it later on. I often go into a new experience with the attitude that I'll enjoy analyzing it's meaning later. You have to understand that I think symbolically, and if it can't be articulated or defined by something, it doesn't even exist for me, in my mind. My favorite things in life are expression and conversation regarding ideas and/or feelings.
    Well, at one point I was where you are now.

    But over time, I realized that it was better to live life than think about living. Analysis is not all it is cracked up to be. The shift happened probably in my early 30's up until now.

    This is basic Zen Buddhism as well -- that the goal is to immerse oneself in the Now rather than constantly remaining detached from the stream.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #23
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    But over time, I realized that it was better to live life than think about living. Analysis is not all it is cracked up to be. The shift happened probably in my early 30's up until now.
    Surely you wouldn't presume to define what is better for everyone based on your own experiences? Of course I live my life, and I enjoy some experiences. I just meant that I don't fully enjoy them until I look back on the moment. Sometimes I even later find something good to remember about a bad experience that I didn't enjoy at all during that time.
    This is basic Zen Buddhism as well -- that the goal is to immerse oneself in the Now rather than constantly remaining detached from the stream.
    Really? I believe it's detaching from your perception of this world, and feeling attuned to the "now" in another reality, such that time loses meaning. Perhaps some can also derive pleasure from being completely attuned to actual reality, but it may be different for everyone.

    What might be enjoyable for one person might not ever be for another, especially on opposite sides of the P/J divide. I sort of dislike your subtle intimation that everyone thinks and feels the same way, and eventually enjoy/need the same sort of experiences.

  4. #24
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Surely you wouldn't presume to define what is better for everyone based on your own experiences?
    Oh, of course I would -- that's what I'm all about, isn't it?

    No, I'm just giving you an awareness that what you are feeling so sure about right now might not be something you feel so sure about later.

    Certainly your mileage might vary, because we are different people. But you didn't even seem to be aware of the possibility. Now you are. Maybe it won't change for you. Maybe it will. Who knows? At least you won't be surprised if it does, and you'll be able to consciously consider it rather than just dismissing it if you do start to change or perhaps you won't wait so long as you might have otherwise.

    Of course I live my life, and I enjoy some experiences. I just meant that I don't fully enjoy them until I look back on the moment. Sometimes I even later find something good to remember about a bad experience that I didn't enjoy at all during that time.
    I end up personally averaging the two concepts: I need to live life, but part of me still is being aware of myself and understanding what has happened, so I can either model it or build upon it and discover new ideas. Perhaps ideally someone might just love being in the stream and see that as their goal; the burden of spending part of my time analyzing is a "sacrifice" I am willing to make. And I suppose that, if I enjoy it, it's not a sacrifice at all.

    Really? I believe it's detaching from your perception of this world, and feeling attuned to the "now" in another reality, such that time loses meaning. Perhaps some can also derive pleasure from being completely attuned to actual reality, but it may be different for everyone.
    I see that as living in the Now and detaching from one's Ego awareness, becoming one with everything.

    What might be enjoyable for one person might not ever be for another, especially on opposite sides of the P/J divide. I sort of dislike your subtle intimation that everyone thinks and feels the same way, and eventually enjoy/need the same sort of experiences.
    Since that wasn't what I intended, perhaps you like me better now that I have clarified.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #25
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    I've always tested close to the T/F divide, the first time I took the test I tested as INTP actually. But when I read the profile I couldn't identify much with it except in parts. When I read the INFP profile otoh it was eerily accurate of my concealed self.

    I attempted to de-INFP myself during my teen years, since boarding school is only slightly less hostile to INFP males than prisons. I decided that detachment was something that would make my life a hell of a lot easier, and would make me less of a target. But even then I was always aware of values first when making assessments or decisions, even when I chose to ignore them in favour of perceived logic.

    Thus, for me, I think the best test of where you fall on the T/F divide is in which profile describes you best when you were around 10-15. Some things can muddy the waters I suppose, like traumatic childhoods and religion.

    And yeah, F is primarily about values, not emotion.

  6. #26
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    When I first took the Myers-Briggs test in high school (over a decade ago now - eek), I was an INFJ, with the FJ slightly stronger than TP traits. It wasn't until I went to grad school and was forced to hone my analytical skills that I became a solid TJ.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post

    FWIW, booyalab, this has become my rule of thumb also.

    Related rule of thumb: If in doubt (as an observer) as to whether a woman is T or a man is F, then they probably are (and their preference seems unclear due to socialization).
    Yes, that could be. But speaking as a female T, I'm sure no one who knew me well would be unclear as to what my preference is. They could make the mistake if I was an acquaintance.
    I don't wanna!

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu View Post
    I think it's a shame of having to choose between T and F. Does the T side handle the emotions adequately, and is it fun and ethical? Does the F side handle thinking adequately, and is it consistent and logical?
    It's not like you have to choose. All functions are just tools we use to navigate with in everyday life and many situations calls for a variety of tools. Furthermore, preference does not equal skill i.e. a person with a F preference could easily make better use of T than a person with a T preference. Ivy is a good example, she often comes though much more logicall and nuanced than many NTs because she is capable of skillfully applying a variety of functions on many issues.

    Have you been uncertain of your preference on the N/F scale and what made you decide which one you are?
    No, I've never been uncertain about my T preference. I took the MBTI test, looked at the result and after being explained what the various letters stood for I just thought to myself - yeah, that pin points it very well.
    Verbal IQ Test

    SubFacor IQ score = 65
    Subscale percentile = 1

    You appear to have a very limited vocabulary and lack the ability to identify the correct responses for a variety of different questions. A deficient vocabulary can hinder you in many ways; you may struggle to find the correct words when speaking, fail to understand what others are communicating to you, or come across as inarticulate to others.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    It's not like you have to choose. All functions are just tools we use to navigate with in everyday life and many situations calls for a variety of tools. Furthermore, preference does not equal skill i.e. a person with a F preference could easily make better use of T than a person with a T preference. Ivy is a good example, she often comes though much more logicall and nuanced than many NTs because she is capable of skillfully applying a variety of functions on many issues.
    I agree. I'm a solid F by nature, and that comes through loud and clear to anyone versed in the distinction between T and F. On the other hand, I grew up in an NT-dominated household (my father is INTP), and I quickly adapted to T environments like the military and the business world. I respect and understand the rules and values of Thinking, and I know there are times when it's appropriate to put aside my personal feelings and examine things through the T prism. So I use my T "situationally."

    I always took it for granted that I needed to have some T skills to get by in the world, especially as a male, and so I put in a lot of time studying logic and analysis skills from the outside. I often refer to my use of T as "faking it" in the sense of "fake it till you make it" (IOW, just keep doing it until it feels natural).

    My first exposure to MBTI was when I was professionally tested on the full MBTI at my workplace when I was in my 40s. We weren't given any instructions at the start of the test or even told what the test was for. So I answered the questions in my "business mode" and I scored as an INTJ. There were 30 questions measuring T vs F, and I answered all 30 questions as T and none as F (talk about overcompensation). Of 29 questions measuring J vs P, I answered 18 as J and 11 as P.

    But I consider those test results to be a "situational" application of T and J. I was just giving the testers what I thought they wanted to hear: I was showing them the way I interact at work when I'm in a no-nonsense, tough-as-nails mode. On the other hand, as soon as I did some background reading, it was quickly clear to me that I'm an INFP when I'm not specifically in my maximum "business mode." I also ran my results past other folks who are knowledgeable or certified with MBTI, and they all agree that I'm pretty obviously an INFP (but also pretty balanced when it comes to dealing with real-world issues).

  10. #30
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    I always took it for granted that I needed to have some T skills to get by in the world, especially as a male, and so I put in a lot of time studying logic and analysis skills from the outside. I often refer to my use of T as "faking it" in the sense of "fake it till you make it" (IOW, just keep doing it until it feels natural).
    Did you feel seeming as unauthentic when you used your T function? Using T is less showmanship and display than using F, in my opinion, so I wouldn't think of most people considering that an "act". Perhaps an immature or harsh T would expect flawless T-like behaviour from others, but I find such unreasonable. I understand if you didn't feel like yourself at first when using T.

    People dont value emotions and feelings so much as I'd like here in Finland, which was very draining for me few years ago. I easily noticed to being taken more seriously when I toned down my F and started to extravert T, even when I was sometimes visibly annoyed for having to deal with people in such an unemotional manner. As long as I've lived in here in Finland, there has been constant whining and criticism about our national mentality, up until perhaps 3-5 years ago.

    I think it was kind of sadistic to pressure me to conform to unemotional expression style. I don't know whether that was due to type issues, true preferences, or some national social development that made people so grumpy and dull until. Well, I can use T, and that's what I've done. Good point with T is that people don't try to do emotional manipulation as much with confident T as they would do with confident F. Many things are more straightforward.

    Perhaps I should see if the nations atmosphare and changed and whether it is now more conductive to display of emotions in public.

    AH, on second thought, I won't. I expect to enter a career when such things are not yet so expected.. but just wait, they will be. I recommend to read Daniel Goleman's book, The Emotionally Intelligent Workplace (2001) to see why

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