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  1. #1
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Default Ne? problem solving

    Extraverted iNtuition - Inferring relationships, noticing threads of meaning, and scanning for what could be. Extraverted iNtuiting involves seeing things "as if" with various possible ways of representing reality. Using this process, we can hold many different ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and meanings in our minds at once with the possibility that they are all true. This is like weaving themes and "threads" together. We don't know the weave until a thought thread appears or is drawn out in the interaction with a previous one. Thus there is often an emergent quality to using this process. A strategy or concept emerges based on the here-and-now interactions, not appearing as a whole beforehand. Extraverted iNtuiting involves realizing that there is always another view. An example is when you listen to one friend tell about an argument and understand perfectly and then listen to another friend tell a contradictory story and understand that view also. Then you wonder what the real story is because there are always so many different possible meanings.

    Introverted Thinking - Analyzing, categorizing, and figuring out how something works. Introverted Thinking often involves finding just the right word to clearly express an idea concisely, crisply, and to the point. Using introverted Thinking is like having an internal sense of the essential qualities of something, noticing the fine distinctions that make it what it is and then naming it. It also involves an internal reasoning process of deriving subcategories of classes and sub-principles of general principles. These can then be used in problem solving, analysis, and refining of a product or an idea. This process is evidenced in behaviors like taking things or ideas apart to figure out how they work. The analysis involves looking at different sides of an issue and seeing where there is inconsistency. In so doing, there is a search for a "leverage point" that will fix problems with the least amount of effort or damage to the system.

    What if the problem cannot be expressed crisply, cleanly, or fine distinctions are not possible? What is sub-catagorization is not possible?

    Introverted Feeling - Evaluating importance and maintaining congruence. It is often hard to put words to the values used to make introverted Feeling judgments since they are often associated with images and feeling-tones more than words. As a cognitive process, it often serves as a filter for information that matches what is valued and wanted. We engage in the process of introverted Feeling when a value is compromised and we think, "sometimes, some things just have to be said." On the other hand, most of the time this process works "in private" and is seldom expressed directly. Actions often speak louder than words. This process helps us know when people are being fake or insincere or if they are basically good. It is like having an internal sense of the "essence" of a person or a project, and reading another person or action or project with fine distinctions among feeling-tones. When the other person's values and beliefs are congruent with our own, we are inclined to feel kinship with them and want to connect with them.

    What if the thing in value is a logical problem with fuzzy boundaries that are difficult to catagorize cleanly? Could NeFi actually be better that Ne-Ti at these sorts of problems?

  2. #2
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    What if the thing in value is a logical problem with fuzzy boundaries that are difficult to catagorize cleanly? Could NeFi actually be better that Ne-Ti at these sorts of problems?
    Neither is 'better' for any situation.

    Both are different but one is not 'better' then the other. It is however wrong to try the other if you're not truely that.

    If you are Ne-Ti then that is the best method for you, if you are Ne-Fi then that is the best method for you.
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  3. #3
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Better as in a more correct solution to the problem at hand.


    sorry fluffy I meant as in people. Are there certain types of problems an enfp will be better suited to solve than an entp?

    The reason this is of interest to me is that I am superb at troubleshooting problems with scientific instrumentation. The entps should be better at me due to Ti, however it's almost like they are constrained by the boundaries of Ti, logic. They can't see past the connections?

    However I cant always solve the problem-I can tell you what is not "right" about the problem-the "lumpy" part. Its like I relax my brain and it just pops out as being incorrect.

    However this ties closely with comments thinkers sometimes have about feelers not being able to cleanly trace out the logical path behind decisions and that thus the answers are illogical? However this seems more like a Ti ability (requirement?). So perhaps just because I cannot cleanly delineate each step in the logical process, that doesnt mean the final answer is incorrect?

  4. #4
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    I meant as in people as well. And I still say no.

    An ENTP would solve the problem his/her way and an ENFP another way. Both should be considered equally as good from an objective point of view.

    (This assumes that both the ENTP and ENFP have the same level of maturity and psychological health and education.)


    Ofcourse people can direct their education to certain specialisation in which solutions can be found that others can not that are considerably better. But I do not believe this is type related at all.
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  5. #5
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Well normally my answer is correct where thiers in wrong-thus the BETTER answer. Or eventually they get to the right answer it just seem to take forvever. So it is pretty objectivly based upon response time and accuracy. This true across all NTs, not just entps. Just trying to be reductionist in this thread.

    However the TYPE of problem is what matters. These guys kick my ass in very clean crisp problems with no contest. I'm not bad but they are better.

    Its the problems with fuzzier boundaries and many variables. I am better at solving those problems before an NT.

    I know this seems simplistic but I think there may be wider implications here.

  6. #6
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Hmm. Give an example then of a problem. I generally don't have much of a problem with any problem. At least with no single problem that has come on my path so far.
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  7. #7
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    Well normally my answer is correct where thiers in wrong-thus the BETTER answer. Or eventually they get to the right answer it just seem to take forvever. So it is pretty objectivly based upon response time and accuracy. This true across all NTs, not just entps. Just trying to be reductionist in this thread.

    However the TYPE of problem is what matters. These guys kick my ass in very clean crisp problems with no contest. I'm not bad but they are better.

    Its the problems with fuzzier boundaries and many variables. I am better at solving those problems before an NT.

    I know this seems simplistic but I think there may be wider implications here.

    Intelligence would be a factor, as well as how well one thinks through problems. ENTPs may not have as well-developed internal thinking and that may be one reason they seem to take 'forever'...You may be good at what you do and have done that type of problem solving for some time...this practice may give you the edge. In the very crisp, clean problems it may be that this is easy deductive logic for them, as I could imagine that would be a cinch being an (ENTP) and just knowing how I can do this. But I don't know the types of problem..whether it's a physical one or intellectual or what...so really can't say with 100% confidence either.
    "..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
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  8. #8
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    1) you are working with a customer. The instrument has a problem. based upon the problem, it could be five different technical issues plus the human element or not following directions, not reading the manual, a new user, not enough coffee leading to mixing up of reagents, or the ac in the room getting turned up too high by the janitor.

    In my mind I just scan through the whole mess, assign unconcious probabilities, and reach for the "bump". Typically there will be one or two "bumps" that knot the problem up. I dont have to go down troubleshooting trees or ask the user lots of questions. It's like have crazy ass psychic troubleshooting powers.

    That was the one thing my PhD advisor said-"you have an amzing ability to reach into the middle of a complex problem and fish out the right answer" he was an intp.

    2) There is repeated bacterial contamination in a protein purification column. Working in a lab with twenty other people you have to identify who did it, how it happened, and how to prevent again. I can sort of "touch" each person in the group with my brain and very quickly estimate chance of them being the issue, vs the glassware claner, vs a problem with a reagent, vs a filet needing to be replaced.

    3) solving a protein structure. The published lit says the protein should be in one confirmation. Yet data pointed otherwise for six other structures, and the mechanisms and enzymology wre not coorespondent. The data was mixed but did not support the lit. I could "feel" the bump but I failed here as I didnt have enough Ti to sort out the detailed reason why.

    sorry this is the fuzzy type of problem I am thinking of at the moment.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avatar7 View Post
    Intelligence would be a factor, as well as how well one thinks through problems. ENTPs may not have as well-developed internal thinking and that may be one reason they seem to take 'forever'...You may be good at what you do and have done that type of problem solving for some time...this practice may give you the edge. In the very crisp, clean problems it may be that this is easy deductive logic for them, as I could imagine that would be a cinch being an (ENTP) and just knowing how I can do this. But I don't know the types of problem..whether it's a physical one or intellectual or what...so really can't say with 100% confidence either.
    As an ENFP I`ve found the biggest limitation is whether I can visualise the system. If I can`t, I need to define the problem until I can. Ti types more readily take a structured approach in these situations, and go ground up. When in the zone ENFP approach is insanely fast. When stuck, can stare at roof for ages trying to find a thread.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    1) you are working with a customer. The instrument has a problem. based upon the problem, it could be five different technical issues plus the human element or not following directions, not reading the manual, a new user, not enough coffee leading to mixing up of reagents, or the ac in the room getting turned up too high by the janitor.

    In my mind I just scan through the whole mess, assign unconcious probabilities, and reach for the "bump". Typically there will be one or two "bumps" that knot the problem up. I dont have to go down troubleshooting trees or ask the user lots of questions. It's like have crazy ass psychic troubleshooting powers.

    That was the one thing my PhD advisor said-"you have an amzing ability to reach into the middle of a complex problem and fish out the right answer" he was an intp.

    2) There is repeated bacterial contamination in a protein purification column. Working in a lab with twenty other people you have to identify who did it, how it happened, and how to prevent again. I can sort of "touch" each person in the group with my brain and very quickly estimate chance of them being the issue, vs the glassware claner, vs a problem with a reagent, vs a filet needing to be replaced.

    3) solving a protein structure. The published lit says the protein should be in one confirmation. Yet data pointed otherwise for six other structures, and the mechanisms and enzymology wre not coorespondent. The data was mixed but did not support the lit. I could "feel" the bump but I failed here as I didnt have enough Ti to sort out the detailed reason why.

    sorry this is the fuzzy type of problem I am thinking of at the moment.


    thats interesting...so first two problems, the ones with an added human element are more readily solved by you and your ENTP counterparts while the very last problem is handled by ENTPs in a much better way

    i think thats where 'honing' your intuition comes in...if thats even possible. you understand people more readily and so are better at solving those problems. ENTPs would come to that possibility but depending on their past experience, might disregard it...that would only happen once or twice though. once they caught on, they would be able to nitpick through it very easily....kinda like House when hes dealing with his staff and patients

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