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  1. #21
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    First, I think your Ne is constantly on overcharge or something. That's probably where most of that comes from. And yes, Fi would likely be better than Ti at problems involving human elements. And three, my Ti is perfectly capable of dealing with "fuzziness". In fact, that's kinda it's job. To sort out fuzziness. Possibly it could be that you are more likely to go with whatever answer Ne spits out, and your ENTP coworkers take more time to get a Ti model. If they went with Ne more, possibly they could be just as fast as you.

    imo
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
    - Costrin

  2. #22
    . Blank's Avatar
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    I'm with Costrin on this. I'm pretty good at using Ne and Fi to categorize people and using my Ti to predict the kinds of actions they'll make. I'm not really so sure how I'd do in a situation that analyzes the past, but that's because of my personal attitude of "Eh, I wasn't there, so I don't know." I tend to put value on personal experience. Anyway, once a very close ENFP friend of mine and I were discussing the potential actions of how a girl would act after being dumped by her boyfriend. He made a pretty accurate guess, but I clarified it with extreme accuracy.

    He now knows to trust my intuitive predictions. =D
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Te = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ne = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fi = 15 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Si = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ni = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Se = 11[][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

  3. #23
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    First, I think your Ne is constantly on overcharge or something. That's probably where most of that comes from. And yes, Fi would likely be better than Ti at problems involving human elements. And three, my Ti is perfectly capable of dealing with "fuzziness". In fact, that's kinda it's job. To sort out fuzziness. Possibly it could be that you are more likely to go with whatever answer Ne spits out, and your ENTP coworkers take more time to get a Ti model. If they went with Ne more, possibly they could be just as fast as you.
    imo
    Thus they are constrained by Ti? Perhaps in these examples I do use Ne like mad, however is that because it isn't bound by Ti logical rules? It gets to jump the track to the fastest Fi tinted solution, which seems to be correct most of the time.

    I know these examples/this question seems pretty specific but I am really digging at a more core question-a T/F question. It sort of came up on the Nfs understanding NTs thread. I dont mean to attack or be obnoxious or knock Ti in anyway, I just would like to try and understand more clearly.

    It seems like the "superior/correct" answer for a problem to a thinker is one that is logical, precise, well defined and has well discrete steps that link each component of the solution together.

    If I provide a solution based upon how I feel, my values, my gut responses, the answer is deemed questionable by a thinker, since I cannot call out those individual, discrete logical components that went into the solution. This troubles me a little.

    I think there are certain types of problems NeTi or TiNe is ideal for addressing. They are clean, crisp, well defined, precise and logical.

    However there are whole hosts of other types of problems where being a feeler I think gives you an advantage over being a thinker, even if we cannot explicitly call out the logical, discrete steps from one aspect of the solution to another. These in this thread are a nice place to start as they are pretty clean problems that are starting down the path of getting muddier.

    So perhaps even if not "logical" by a thinkers standards, the answer is still superior to one proposed by a thinker?

  4. #24
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Here are some of the comments I am sort of mulling over from the other thread. haha I quoted myself. Please forgive if I grabbed one of your quotes and taken out of context they are not quite right, but they capture the essence.

    Funny enough the entire discussion feels "lumpy" to me (my Ne) as there are pieces that dont quite fit together correctly, thus trying to pin the intial topic in this particular thread down a little more tightly to a specific kind of problem in a more reductionist manner.


    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    I am sorry but I simply can't accept your claims without testing them. I am not even sure that I would be able to do this even if I force myself.
    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    I guess my values do have "an underpinning of facts" (if I've understood that correctly) that I can call out to justify their logical basis. If they don't, sooner or later they're gone. If that means they aren't properly values, then I guess they aren't properly values.
    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    jeff, how do you determine the logical connections between the values? What makes them logical if they do not have an underpinning of facts that you can call out that justify thier logical basis?
    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    What you are trying to say is they make sense to you. Logic isn't relative. It's impersonal. This is a fine example of the conflict of interests inherent in the NT vs NF positions.
    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    does Logic of the same relevance as values in a debate? Are both equally valid ways of argument and discussion?
    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    No, I meant logic or values, though I don't think they're mutually exclusive.
    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    Precisely. He's confusing logic with rationalization.
    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    EDIT: this is why it annoys me when someone asserts something offhandedly but has no proof or reason. When I'm serious about something and have gathered facts and figures - you can't just tell me "but it doesn't 'sit' well with me", or it doesn't "feel right". I want to know exactly why you've made that assertion. I am not trying to refute you, I'm trying to learn from you (or share the truth with you).
    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    Ti is pure logic. It presents facts to facts to facts for Ne to connect. They can be really clever and witty and fun, but it's factual. Can you make a Ne connection without the fact????

    Fi is-well I dont know what it is-but not logical. It presents feelings, subtlties, shades of nuance for Ne to connect. pieces, parts of fluffy stuff that Ne ties together. With people it seems to present holistic stuff for Ne to connect. It skips over walls, boundaries and isnt "constrained " by logical barriers.

    So Ne-Fi may figure stuff out that Ne-Ti can't?? I see this practically in troubleshooting the scientific instrument I work on. Given a problem I am way, way up high and I just sort of "feel" around until I find the piece that seems a little out of joint. Then I point to it and the problem is there. I am much better at troublshooting than most NTs for this reason.

  5. #25
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Basically, I think it's the Ne that finds the "lumpiness", and other (judging) functions that sort out the lumpiness. Ne is faster because a lump is big, and sometimes it's "good enough" to just take out the lump as a whole. But other times you need to use another function, like Ti, Fi, Te, whatever to sort it out when it isn't as effective to just take out the lump as a whole.

    It seems that you have more of a propensity to just using Ne alone and taking out the lump, whereas they want more of a clean operation.

    You are Ne-monster. l2judgingfunction.
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
    - Costrin

  6. #26
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    Basically, I think it's the Ne that finds the "lumpiness", and other (judging) functions that sort out the lumpiness. Ne is faster because a lump is big, and sometimes it's "good enough" to just take out the lump as a whole. But other times you need to use another function, like Ti, Fi, Te, whatever to sort it out when it isn't as effective to just take out the lump as a whole.

    It seems that you have more of a propensity to just using Ne alone and taking out the lump, whereas they want more of a clean operation.

    You are Ne-monster. l2judgingfunction.
    aye this does sound familiar. There are certain problems where i find the lump and then sic my NTs onto the problem as I cannot solve it. I think of it as being an english pointer. (is that what type of puppy I am?)

    (whats a l2judging function? woof.)

    However often I find the lump and then have to finish providing the solution as well myself. The muddier the problem, the better I get at this.

    However thoughts on the bigger T/F problem solving?

  7. #27
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    (whats a l2judging function? woof.)
    Learn to use your judging functions, eh.

    However often I find the lump and then have to finish providing the solution as well myself. The muddier the problem, the better I get at this.
    Likely because only you can see the lump because you can't adequately explain it without the use of a judging function. :P

    However thoughts on the bigger T/F problem solving?
    Ti wants to make a perfectly accurate objective model of the universe. Fi makes a model of the self and how things are valued in reference to the self.

    Te and Fe make an external system for objective impersonal interactions (Te) or how people should act in various situations (Fe). It isn't concerned with being correct, just with finding a structure that works.

    Ti and Fi can both deal with the human element, but an Fi person is likely to better at it, as it is naturally more inclined to do so, it would have more experience, more data to work off of. Fe could do so also by tapping into the social system of expectations. Te is probably least fit for this.

    Ti is probably best at solving at pure logic problems, but Fi could also if it could create a personal connection with it. Te could by using "formal logic" or whatever system it has. Fe is likely least suited for this kinda problem.

    Stuff basically.
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
    - Costrin

  8. #28
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    ENTJ- Bouncing ideas off of others by striking up a conversation with them
    and mentioning things that indirectly relate to it and trying to see if the co-
    nversation ends up going that way.

    Going out and doing something like shopping (don't worry not buying every-
    thing to solve problems...lol I've read Shopaholic) I've found a lot of resour-
    ces I needed to solve problems that way when I wasn't thinking about it li-
    ke books or just something fun to do then when I'd be doing those things a-
    nd had whatever the problem was off my mind a solution would pop into my
    head because I wasn't beating my brains out.

    Going out with friends...I try to think how I would solve the problem as if
    we were solving one of the random little situations we get into.

    And reading...sometimes I come across answers when I realize I relate to
    a certain fictional character.

    and last but not least, good old google.
    you have all the power you need if you dare to look
    for it.

  9. #29
    Is Willard in Footloose!! CJ99's Avatar
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    That an interesting point your making costrin about the Ne in the ENTP needing to be evaulated by Ti.

    Kiersay actually talks about this in his book please understand me ii. He talks about the different temperments and one the interesting points he makes is how NFs use intuition heavily relying on it more than any other temperment. He says NTs use N in the same way but insist on backing it up with logic.

    Almost like NTs make the jump from one idea to another then turn round too double check it works whereas NFs just jump and as long as it "feels" right they go with it.

    This is quite interesting as I always asumed NTs were always 9.9/10 times the best at problem solving but i'm starting to see how wrong I was.

    Out of interest happy puppy what kind of problems have you solved that NTs couldn't (at all or as fast)?
    "I'd never die for my beliefs, I might be wrong"

    "Is it not enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe there are fairys at the bottom of it too"

    "Intelligence is being able to hold too opposing views in the mind at the one time without going crazy" - Now all I need to figure out is if I'm intelligent or crazy!

  10. #30
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Do you love your job? Gotten invested in it? Do you find it valuable to create solutions? I'm having a hard time understanding how Fi contributes to problem solving per se other than thinking it provides motive. Ne provides insight; Fi motivates paying attention; Te organises...

    Dunno. I'm slavishly following function descriptions in a bid to... to... something. Fi before Te is outside my experience, as is Ne.

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