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  1. #11
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thisGuy View Post
    thats interesting...so first two problems, the ones with an added human element are more readily solved by you and your ENTP counterparts while the very last problem is handled by ENTPs in a much better way

    i think thats where 'honing' your intuition comes in...if thats even possible. you understand people more readily and so are better at solving those problems. ENTPs would come to that possibility but depending on their past experience, might disregard it...that would only happen once or twice though. once they caught on, they would be able to nitpick through it very easily....kinda like House when hes dealing with his staff and patients
    But i think the trick is that each time a problem presents with the human contamination, it varies. It is never the exact same problem so it is always muddy and fuzzy. So the logical connections are never the same, and i always do better on them.

    Another example:

    can I run two different software packages on the same instrument with the same pc, on different assays without violating fda guidelines for a given assay in different labs?

    This should be a really straightforward answer but there a whole bunch of complicating issues that muddy the waters and it is highly dependent upon who is interpreting what information. So I do better than an NT at sorting through the mess, identifying the pivitol issues, then finding the best sources/key individuals to get answers from to find a final solution

  2. #12
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Hmm, I think your concern is with the difference between Ti and Te, and not NF and NT?

    As a Ti myself, I deal with problems similarly to you. I can easily see patterns and the big picture. Whilest a Te person is more focused and might need a bit more time to grasp the entirety of the problem.

    That said, Te has very strong positives as well in turn that us Ti people might have trouble with.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  3. #13
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    1) you are working with a customer. The instrument has a problem. based upon the problem, it could be five different technical issues plus the human element or not following directions, not reading the manual, a new user, not enough coffee leading to mixing up of reagents, or the ac in the room getting turned up too high by the janitor.

    In my mind I just scan through the whole mess, assign unconcious probabilities, and reach for the "bump". Typically there will be one or two "bumps" that knot the problem up. I dont have to go down troubleshooting trees or ask the user lots of questions. It's like have crazy ass psychic troubleshooting powers.

    That was the one thing my PhD advisor said-"you have an amzing ability to reach into the middle of a complex problem and fish out the right answer" he was an intp.

    2) There is repeated bacterial contamination in a protein purification column. Working in a lab with twenty other people you have to identify who did it, how it happened, and how to prevent again. I can sort of "touch" each person in the group with my brain and very quickly estimate chance of them being the issue, vs the glassware claner, vs a problem with a reagent, vs a filet needing to be replaced.

    3) solving a protein structure. The published lit says the protein should be in one confirmation. Yet data pointed otherwise for six other structures, and the mechanisms and enzymology wre not coorespondent. The data was mixed but did not support the lit. I could "feel" the bump but I failed here as I didnt have enough Ti to sort out the detailed reason why.

    sorry this is the fuzzy type of problem I am thinking of at the moment.
    Thanks for describing Ne to us. I pretty much live my life this way.

    ps: yeah Ne gives me informations about structures in that sensation-like way too, in my case it's a kinetic\geometric thing.

    What's ur point ?

    It's all about the right brain cortex vs left brain cortex dychotomy and how the bandwidth limit of the corpus collussum + genes 've built up the structure for a better response time vs accuracy efficiency.

    Neurons activations levels and the whole neural network thingie going on in the brain make a quasi behavioristic (reinforcement) building up of problem solving kind of natural.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
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  4. #14
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    if i needed to be clearer I mean the left brain's objetive analysis (and by that i do mean the creation of mental objects) vs and with the right brain's holistic approach.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    But i think the trick is that each time a problem presents with the human contamination, it varies. It is never the exact same problem so it is always muddy and fuzzy. So the logical connections are never the same, and i always do better on them.

    Another example:
    well if life were that linear, we'd no better than computers

    thats where the infinite number of possibilities come in

  6. #16
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Thanks for describing Ne to us. I pretty much live my life this way.

    ps: yeah Ne gives me informations about structures in that sensation-like way too, in my case it's a kinetic\geometric thing.

    What's ur point ?

    It's all about the right brain cortex vs left brain cortex dychotomy and how the bandwidth limit of the corpus collussum + genes 've built up the structure for a better response time vs accuracy efficiency.

    Neurons activations levels and the whole neural network thingie going on in the brain make a quasi behavioristic (reinforcement) building up of problem solving kind of natural.
    Do you have some refs I can read for all the brain stuff maybe? sounds interesting and I am not quite following you but would be glad to go read up. Ooo I am glad I am not the only sensationy like person. It's so wierd-odd-fun.

    The point is as an enfp I can do a better job solving these fuzzy problems than an NT. I can do it faster and get to a correct answer more often. I think Ti may actually be a limitation not an asset in a problem with fuzzy, people, human boundaries that vary situationally. I think Fi may be an asset here.

    In the big picture, extending the question up another level, I question the assertion that I have seen made in other threads that a solution has to be "logical" in that you have to be able to explain each step of rational analysis for it to be correct. Sometimes I just "feel" a certain solution is correct. I cant delineate certain cognitive steps from A to B, but that does not mean the answer is incorrect, as often it may be more correct, .


    EDIT: However this does not apply to clean, crisp problems, only muddy screwed up people contaminated problems.

    This troubleshooting is just a particular, practical aspect of the more global question. I think once I get this part straightened out the argumane tcan be reasserted in the larger frame.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    I think Ti may actually be a limitation not an asset in a problem with fuzzy, people, human boundaries that vary situationally.

    ive often thought that...but then i just let go and stop directing my thoughts. let whatever will, come to my head...and then i feel like myself again



    if that made sense to anyone at all, you deserve a beer. one pint, no more; you ARE at work you slacker

  8. #18
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    Do you have some refs I can read for all the brain stuff maybe? sounds interesting and I am not quite following you but would be glad to go read up. Ooo I am glad I am not the only sensationy like person. It's so wierd-odd-fun.

    I think I have just the book for ya.
    It's short and good, one of my favorite authors.

    The Language of Change by Paul Watzlawick

    My favorite anthropologist by far. Well in fact he's more of a psychiatrist but he has a very social approach to his works, which makes sense in social animals with 2 brains and metacognition (last two are all basically 'social' processes in their internal structure)

    I also have my own notes on the topic, 'm trying to write things down. (and then forgot I ever wrote xx pages on whatever topic i was thinking about)
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  9. #19
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thisGuy View Post
    ive often thought that...but then i just let go and stop directing my thoughts. let whatever will, come to my head...and then i feel like myself again

    if that made sense to anyone at all, you deserve a beer. one pint, no more; you ARE at work you slacker
    THAT'S when the magic happens!!!!!! I totally get that. stuff just bubbles up. I have learned when I dont know and answer, to just stop, feel the problem with my brain-squishies and let my brain bubble, and all types of crap pops up!! Thats when I find the bumps.

    sorry no beer, I have scientifically determined through repeated, long term studies that a pint of gunniess turns me into a total lush. No lushiness in the workplace.

  10. #20
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    i enter this qwagmire every day since becoming more educated on function. Imo. Ne will put some kind of temporary label/definition on a symbol/idea/noun. These temporary labels/definitions literaly always remain temporary even when they are confirmed solid. Imagine Ne to be its own language. The Ne language will have symbols/nouns that will constantly evolve to have different meanings to those symbols, yet those meanings are still similar. Even verbs employed with which to manipulate the symbols use will evolve to better fit that overall meaning. Think of Ne as greatly inflective. The symbols within it are understood to a degree just by nature alone due to every possible meaning being somewhat similar no matter how the past or future tweeks it. Where Ne tries to refine the meaning of an idea or symbol is found within connecting and overlapping though morphology and a false syntax (false syntax being from any angle, like solving a maze by starting at the finnish even if it's an assumed finnishing point). Not custom standards and a concluded organization. This morphology found in the Ne language can also be altered (faked) to try to fit external dialects. And even altered (faked) within itself to fit a newly generated temporary change within its own morphology that was pressured by external forces to remain (stable<if you will) to conform to an environment of status quo habit. But we all know that status quo always changes and our language has to keep exploring to stay ahead of these changes due to what we are sure of from overlapping the past, present, and future. We're always finding our path through the maze by assuming where the finnish is. Problem is, that Known finnish point keeps changing. Probably because it's not known where the finnish is because the stasus quo only allows us to experience the maze from ground level. It's nice to have the ability to see it from the top to some extent though
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

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