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[NT] Driving NTs crazy: It's what Feelers do...

ceecee

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If only they were all like you. Unfortunately, an awful lot of them will not let that be the end of the conversation, because if you say No, then they want to know how it does make you feel and then argue with whatever you say, telling you you're wrong to feel it or taking your feeling as a judgement on them or someone else. And if you say yes, then ... etc...

I don't think I can remember a single time when I've been asked how I felt, and the asker has been contented with a one word or short answer; can't remember one time in my life when they've asked me that, and weren't spoiling for a heart to heart that became a drama fest.

This is absolutely true in my experience also. I can only attribute my ENFJ's ability to take a yes or no answer to him being male. My F women friends do exactly what you describe. Or want to but I rarely let them. And they can't fathom how you just don't have a feeling about something.
 

Saslou

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Nice one substitute.

See i think this comes down to if it is worth putting the effort in in the first place.

I do see where you are coming from. Yes most definately in the past, i have been given an answer and not been satisfied. I'm honest. Yes, i did expect people to think/feel on the same lines of me as we are all human beings.

If only i knew about all these types a few years back, oh things would of been easier. Unless someone explains to me in a practical, logical way their thinking process then how am i to know they 'work' differently to me.
That is why i appreciate the honesly and bluntness and communication. *sigh*

If i am easier to read than yourself, and i express myself through feelings and logic. Doesn't it then make sense to clarify yourself and your thought process through communication as to how you 'work'?
Does that make sense?
 

entropie

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I love my feeler, I can listen to her for hours, because her mind comes up with things I would have never thought about.

There are things that bug me about her attitude tho sometimes. I just dont know them at the moment, those things are always only present when they happen and tend to vanish afterwards :/
 

iwakar

crush the fences
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I used to have problems with feelers when I was younger, especially FJs--with added emphasis on EXFJs. The more insistent the feeler, the more annoying I found them. It's like those people who are extroverts who assume that the quiet minority of introverts must have something wrong with them. Only in the feeler's situation, they insist you are feeling something that you aren't. I think all types find it annoying to be falsely accused of something and then not have their accuser believe them after several denials.

Anyway, I'm absolutely aware of my emotions. I think I always have been. It's just that I don't have a lot of them. I find it annoying when people insist that you have emotions that don't really exist.

I had this feeling teacher who I hated as a teenager. She was always trying to hug me, and she said once that she could read the emotions on my face like a book. The only thing was, she was always waaaay off about what I was thinking. That presumption annoyed me. Thinkers Introverts are private about what emotions they do have, so it's annoying when some know-it-all tries to tell you what you're feeling.

Now that I'm older, I don't really have these sort of experiences so much. I've learned how to pass better as a human being. Like, even though I hate people who oversmile, I make efforts to smile more so that people won't constantly mistake my restful expression for depression or hatred. And, in turn, I think feelers are a bit more tactful with what they say as they mature. The immature girl feelers who constantly ask questions like "Are you REALLY okay?" and "Are you mad at me?" curb their asinine questions as they get older.

I'm a thinker who was raised in a family of all feelers. I never had communication problems with them. I got exasperated at their communication problems with each other, but... My family does the best thing they can for a thinker. They take me at face value and don't force too much of their emotions on me.

I could've said that verbatim.
 

entropie

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I am for the 15th time here now in like 20 minutes, but nothing comes to mind
 

substitute

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Doesn't it then make sense to clarify yourself and your thought process through communication as to how you 'work'?
Does that make sense?

In theory yes, it does. But my experience tells me that most of the time if I try to do this, it only ends up in even more misunderstanding, as things I say get taken the wrong way. And to be honest, when I'm in the middle of something or I'm just chilling or whatever, the last thing I feel like is morphing into a one-man psychology class and education campaign just to answer whatever question a bored Feeler has decided to fire at me.

edit - especially when the answer is, very often, quite genuinely "I don't know". Because then the Feeler's just all psyched up to grill me over WHY I don't know or HOW I can't know and what's wrong with me and why aren't I more in touch with... etc etc ad nauseam

And they can't fathom how you just don't have a feeling about something.

...or that even if you do, you're not aware of it. and even if you are, you don't set any store by it, it's not part of your decision making process. It's virtually irrelevant, so why debate it?
 

Verfremdungseffekt

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Once, I vented to her about a situation that was bothering me and she told our other friend, "Tallulah was just so ANGRY! I had no idea how to calm her down!" Kind of blew my mind, because I wasn't angry--just frustrated--and it had nothing to do with her.
Mm.

Something else about my INFJ was never getting the benefit of the doubt about anything, ever. Whatever her initial impression of my meaning or motivation or intent, it was final -- however contrary to my nature or generally bizarre that impression might have been. You'd think after seven years she'd get used to the way I work.

In the cases where her impression was especially strange, I got extra venom because that impression didn't make any sense. This, you see, just led her to believe I was turning more and more unreasonable. How could I possibly say or believe such strange things?!

It didn't help that she rarely brought these impressions to my attention until months, or even years, later. Though even when she did so, it still helped little, as by then she had long since made up her mind. So any attempt to refute her findings, however gently, she took as personal criticism. Which just led her to bark at me for having "yelled at" her.

So, yes, fun.
 

substitute

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Mm.

Something else about my INFJ was never getting the benefit of the doubt about anything, ever. Whatever her initial impression of my meaning or motivation or intent, it was final -- however contrary to my nature or generally bizarre that impression might have been. You'd think after seven years she'd get used to the way I work.

In the cases where her impression was especially strange, I got extra venom because that impression didn't make any sense. This, you see, just led her to believe I was turning more and more unreasonable. How could I possibly say or believe such strange things?!

It didn't help that she rarely brought these impressions to my attention until months, or even years, later. Though even when she did so, it still helped little, as by then she had long since made up her mind. So any attempt to refute her findings, however gently, she took as personal criticism. Which just led her to bark at me for having "yelled at" her.

So, yes, fun.

:rofl1:

Sorry, it's just so good to know I'm not the only one who gets this BS.

Actually I remember a while back on this board, on quite a few occasions, having frank discussions with Ni dominant types where the total opposition of Ne to Ni attitudes were very much displayed - Ne being generally optimistic and trusting until given reason to do otherwise - and even then, still being open to revision, whilst Ni is by default suspicious and untrusting, looking for and seeing in everything confirmation of its suspicions. The phrase "benefit of the doubt" was exactly what I used at the time, and I think it was generally agreed that it's not a phrase in the Ni dominant's vocabulary!
 
V

violaine

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This is different to my own experience as a Ni dom and I have found quite the opposite to be true with some Ne doms that I know. The phrase "optimistic and trusting until given a reason" could be written for me. Neither function can be labelled as optimistic/trusting or pessimistic/suspicious based on my own experiences of Ni/Ne doms.

An INFJ may find it difficult to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't give feedback though and that is likely where you will see the leaping to conclusions. I view those kinds of problems as the result of a breakdown in communication between the INFJ and their SO. Also varies according to health, independence and self-esteem levels of the INFJ.
 

substitute

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This is different to my own experience as a Ni dom and I have found quite the opposite to be true with some Ne doms that I know. The phrase "optimistic and trusting until given a reason" could be written for me. Neither function can be labelled as optimistic/trusting or pessimistic/suspicious based on my own experiences of Ni/Ne doms.

An INFJ may find it difficult to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't give feedback though and that is likely where you will see the leaping to conclusions. I view those kinds of problems as the result of a breakdown in communication between the INFJ and their SO. Also varies according to health, independence and self-esteem levels of the INFJ.

Yeah, but I've always suspected you were a closet INFP :newwink:

(if there's one thing an ENxP gives, it's feedback! I don't think anyone can really accuse an ENxP of not being open! usually we're being told to STFU for being too open, right when we're actually volunteering to you our inner workings, giving you the chance to listen and learn something about how we tick and what's important in our thinking processes...)
 

Lauren Ashley

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Yeah, but I've always suspected you were a closet INFP :newwink:
No, she's INFJ through and through.

The phrase "optimistic and trusting until given a reason" could be written for me. Neither function can be labelled as optimistic/trusting or pessimistic/suspicious based on my own experiences of Ni/Ne doms.
QFT. I find such statements quite ridiculous and ironic considering that Ne is being hailed as "optimistic and trusting."
 
V

violaine

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Yeah, but I've always suspected you were a closet INFP :newwink:

(if there's one thing an ENxP gives, it's feedback! I don't think anyone can really accuse an ENxP of not being open! usually we're being told to STFU for being too open, right when we're actually volunteering to you our inner workings, giving you the chance to listen and learn something about how we tick and what's important in our thinking processes...)

Lol, no :p

Yeah, ENPs may be good with giving feedback in a relationship; I was flowing with the conversation continuing on from Aderack... ime INTPs can be unforthcoming in that respect. (Not only INTPs, not always and I understand why). It's a particular communication hurdle for the two that has to be overcome somehow for the relationship to hum along with INFJ.

No, she's INFJ through and through.

Heh, thanks Lauren... we really do have that doppelgänger thing going on. ;)
 

Verfremdungseffekt

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An INFJ may find it difficult to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't give feedback though and that is likely where you will see the leaping to conclusions.
Thing is, she didn't want feedback of any sort. Anything I might have to say that contradicted her own impressions, she called an "excuse" or a "euphemism".

Once I tried to suggest to her that we weren't communicating well, and she grew furious with me, and said that was just a euphemism. "A euphemism for what?" I asked. No reply.

Getting anything out of her was like pulling teeth. And it seemed almost completely arbitrary how she'd take anything I had to say.

On the suspicion end, yeah. That's interesting. Eventually it got that she would spend her time actively searching for things I might have done that she could react negatively toward. If she was gone for a week, and I'd spent a bunch of time and effort while she was away cleaning and maintaining things, when she'd return, she would take the time to scour the apartment from room to room, searching for something I'd screwed up. When she'd find it, she'd wave it in my face and give me hell about it. How could I possibly not do X precisely the right way?! I'd mention that I had my own work to do, I wasn't used to the task, and if she hadn't noticed, I'd done W, Y, and Z. And I'd made some attempt at X, anyway. Never mind that, though. She'd found an excuse to be angry with me. Success! Hooray! More proof of... something.
 

Accept

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It's more an accidental result of the process of trying to step into their shoes... often times that means I will ascribe certain feelings to things, but I am very open to being corrected.

I only ever really engage in this when close to someone (it's how I bond with them, I need to know someone deeply and intimately); or if having an intriguing one-off conversation.

In relationships I will be relentless in trying to map my SO's internal world.

The charm and intrigue that is the INFJ. Of the types I've known the INFJ gets it right more than others. It's only a problem when they get it wrong. INTP can be stubborn at times, but it's nothing like a stubborn INFJ. Must be the J in turbocharge mode.


I also keep revisiting something I don't quite have 'put to bed' as long as a person is open to discussing it. If I sense you are uncomfortable I will leave it be for a while until I can raise it again at a later date when you are comfortable.

The only thing worse than discussing feelings of the moment is having to do so when they no longer apply. I prefer to have the INFJ listen at the time they bring it up, and however strange my reactions or feelings might seem to them, realize it is the truth. What can be said after the truth is told, but not believed?

I guess it can make them uncomfortable if I seem to know a lot about them and they know comparitively little about me. Though that never occurs to me, lol.

If someone expresses discomfort to me, I tend to back off and stop engaging them that way.

Maybe this is the most significant obstacle to an INTP/INFJ relationship. If it's difficult to know which of them withholds more, my experience has been that the INFJ is less likely to admit doing so until the INTP no longer cares. The most significant other in my life has always been too quick to back away, cutting off communication until it can be discussed as something from the past; a separation of what is from what was.
As an INTP it isn't that I have secrets. I just have difficulty knowing what someone wants me to share, and why they even care. Anything asked can be answered, but answers aren't given without a question - this continually frustrates the INFJ of my life.

It is not Machiavellian.

True, but it can be annoying. I've never cared much what other feelers say about my feelings or reactions, but the INFJs are always my special weakness. What I accept is that I'm far more frustrating to them - something I've learned from those discussions of the past they seem to enjoy.
 
V

violaine

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^Very interesting, good to know. Yup, a person definitely needs to decide if they can handle what may be annoying about an INFJ in a relationship because the desire to dig deeply into the SO will always be there.

Thing is, she didn't want feedback of any sort. Anything I might have to say that contradicted her own impressions, she called an "excuse" or a "euphemism".

Once I tried to suggest to her that we weren't communicating well, and she grew furious with me, and said that was just a euphemism. "A euphemism for what?" I asked. No reply.

Getting anything out of her was like pulling teeth. And it seemed almost completely arbitrary how she'd take anything I had to say.

On the suspicion end, yeah. That's interesting. Eventually it got that she would spend her time actively searching for things I might have done that she could react negatively toward. If she was gone for a week, and I'd spent a bunch of time and effort while she was away cleaning and maintaining things, when she'd return, she would take the time to scour the apartment from room to room, searching for something I'd screwed up. When she'd find it, she'd wave it in my face and give me hell about it. How could I possibly not do X precisely the right way?! I'd mention that I had my own work to do, I wasn't used to the task, and if she hadn't noticed, I'd done W, Y, and Z. And I'd made some attempt at X, anyway. Never mind that, though. She'd found an excuse to be angry with me. Success! Hooray! More proof of... something.

That behavior, as you've represented it, would also drive me crazy.
 

Verfremdungseffekt

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Granted, yeah, you've only got my take on the matter. With my propensity for quintuple-guessing myself, you'll just have to trust that I've come at this from pretty much every possible angle. And my conclusion is urgh.

I don't mean to imply that she's a definitive example of her respective type. She's clearly just not a very well-developed person. She's got a powerful father who has always given her whatever she wants whenever she wants it, and she measures everyone she meets against him.* As she explicitly told me a few times. She has no interest in give and take; she only wants to be entertained. That's got nothing to do with type; it's just her.

Still, in respect to the title of the thread, well, there it all is.

--

* - Fun story: about six months before our initial split, she pleaded with me to buy for her an expensive digital camera. She'd split the cost with me, she said. I didn't have much money, but after some number crunching I agreed. She was overjoyed. I didn't have much use for the camera, so it was really just for her. She said she'd pay me back later. The following weekend, she went home and got her father to buy her a much better, even more expensive camera. When she returned, she didn't understand why I was annoyed with her. She said she'd pay me back! And here, I could use the camera if I wanted! Of course I didn't care if she repaid me or not. The money wasn't the point.

She did this sort of thing fairly regularly.

Later after our split, she took the camera and then claimed she lost it.
 
V

violaine

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^Yeah, sounds rough. :/ (Btw wasn't taking a side, just trying to be balanced.)

She's got a powerful father who has always given her whatever she wants whenever she wants it, and she measures everyone she meets against him. As she explicitly told me a few times. She has no interest in give and take; she only wants to be entertained. That's got nothing to do with type; it's just her.

^P.S. Eww.
 

Cady

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NF's - How are you? How are you feeling? Are you ok?

Am I the only NT who feels sort of harassed when asked "how are you feeling?" ?
It's really not the fault your guys' fault for asking it, sharing feelings and having to empathize/sympathize with people just isn't something I can get enthusiastic about :(
 

Verfremdungseffekt

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I really need to finish polishing my thoughts before I hit the "submit" button.

...

Anyway, yeah. I'm just... This has taken a while to deal with. I'm going to be bearing the fallout for a while yet.
 
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