[NT] Driving NTs crazy: It's what Feelers do...

[Accept]

Could you elaborate a bit?

It's been my good fortune to have two INFJs as friends for a few decades now, so the observation of their tenacity comes from the frustrations of communicating with their need to ascribe their emotional response as mine. While I admit they don't often push the issue, I've learned they also don't let it go. On occasion it will be brought up later. At other times they continue as nothing happened, confidant that they were right and basing our future on the flawed assumption. At other times they withdraw from the urge to argue, but with the confidence that they are right, and I am wrong, even though it is my emotional state being discussed. This creates separations, often lasting years. It is my loss. INFJ and INTJ are the types I most enjoy being around, but with the INFJs there are misunderstandings that don't exist with the INTJs.

It doesn't help that these INFJs avoid exposing the truth of their own feelings at the very time when sharing might bring an understanding of why we're not experiencing the same emotional response to the circumstance.

 

[jenocyde]

At other times they withdraw from the urge to argue, but with the confidence that they are right, and I am wrong, even though it is my emotional state being discussed.

This comes off as very smug. I have several good ENFP friends who I can't stand sometimes for this reason alone.

 

[substitute]

I am interested in the feelings of others as long as they aren't projecting all the %$^& over me.
For instance...I am making them feel sad because I am "holding back my emotions" when they know something bad happened in my life.
And they feel "unloved" because I don't want to have a "good cry" and "get it off my chest"
This is very unpleasant.

Word to the power of ten.

And

It's been my good fortune to have two INFJs as friends for a few decades now, so the observation of their tenacity comes from the frustrations of communicating with their need to ascribe their emotional response as mine. While I admit they don't often push the issue, I've learned they also don't let it go. On occasion it will be brought up later. At other times they continue as nothing happened, confidant that they were right and basing our future on the flawed assumption. At other times they withdraw from the urge to argue, but with the confidence that they are right, and I am wrong, even though it is my emotional state being discussed. This creates separations, often lasting years. It is my loss. INFJ and INTJ are the types I most enjoy being around, but with the INFJs there are misunderstandings that don't exist with the INTJs.

It doesn't help that these INFJs avoid exposing the truth of their own feelings at the very time when sharing might bring an understanding of why we're not experiencing the same emotional response to the circumstance.

+1546546432132134

(agreeing with jenocyde however, that it's not just INFJ's... my ENFJ sister and ENFP brother do it to me too)

edit - (but disagreeing about it being 'my loss' - I don't feel like it's a loss when they finally get fed up and move on. The reduction in the amount of drama in my life is extremely pleasant)

 

[Galusha]

for me, it's not feelers so much as people who use Fe. no, I don't want to tell you all of my problems. no, a hug will not get you out of debt. for me, the whole 1984 thing is scary, not because the government tells you what to think, but what to feel. these people actually exist, and don't understand why implanting emotions into someone else is the most rude and affronting thing that can be done to another human being. for all of their being in touch with other people, they have this pushy way of telling you how you should feel that offends me more than the most snide, logical comment.

other feelers are fine as long as they develop their thinking functions eventually.

 

[Jwill]

I used to have problems with feelers when I was younger, especially FJs--with added emphasis on EXFJs. The more insistent the feeler, the more annoying I found them. It's like those people who are extroverts who assume that the quiet minority of introverts must have something wrong with them. Only in the feeler's situation, they insist you are feeling something that you aren't. I think all types find it annoying to be falsely accused of something and then not have their accuser believe them after several denials.

Anyway, I'm absolutely aware of my emotions. I think I always have been. It's just that I don't have a lot of them. I find it annoying when people insist that you have emotions that don't really exist.

I had this feeling teacher who I hated as a teenager. She was always trying to hug me, and she said once that she could read the emotions on my face like a book. The only thing was, she was always waaaay off about what I was thinking. That presumption annoyed me. Thinkers are private about what emotions they do have, so it's annoying when some know-it-all tries to tell you what you're feeling.

Now that I'm older, I don't really have these sort of experiences so much. I've learned how to pass better as a human being. Like, even though I hate people who oversmile, I make efforts to smile more so that people won't constantly mistake my restful expression for depression or hatred. And, in turn, I think feelers are a bit more tactful with what they say as they mature. The immature girl feelers who constantly ask questions like "Are you REALLY okay?" and "Are you mad at me?" curb their asinine questions as they get older.

I'm a thinker who was raised in a family of all feelers. I never had communication problems with them. I got exasperated at their communication problems with each other, but... My family does the best thing they can for a thinker. They take me at face value and don't force too much of their emotions on me.

 

[Blank]

Ahaha, I actually don't have much of a problem with the 1984 thing of telling people how to feel.

It's a very T thing to do. >=D

 

[mortabunt]

1) do you guys think you may be showing physiological signs of an emotional response but be unaware you are doing so? Ie you dont know what you are feeling exactly? So the NF picks it up subtle cues, tries to describe it, then screws up as you guys are still not even aware of exactly what is going on yourselves? (Just a Q I really have no idea, so no offense please) I am showing subconscious signs, but then again, I restrain and watch body language.

2) Is it this mistaken perception, or the following persecution that is most offensive? (persecution?? what is that exactly, as thats a crazy strong word, and I hope I'd never do that) It is trying to persuade me that my real nature is not my nature.

3) Or is that maybe they saw and tried to describe what you were projecting outwards before you had a chance to understand it yourself? And thus it is the presumption that they understand that is so offensive, when you do not understand quite yet. It is not offensive, but interesting.

4) does it bother you more that they try and descibe your thoughts, your feelings, or your motivations? Ues. since they are clueless about them.

5) Do you find this gets used as tool against you when in conflict with an NF? And then you are assigned feelings, motivations and such which are incorrect. (and on that note, potentially later, after analysis, could some of it have been correct?) This is used against me.

6) is part of the offense that someone would even try and understand your emotions? Ie its none of our business in the first place? No offense, but I like accurate statements.

 

[Tallulah]

I have had this happen many times with many friends--on occasion this tendency has led to the end of the friendship. One friend, who was really not very close to me, anyway (she was much closer to a couple of my mutual friends, and we kind of ended up being friends because of that factor), was constantly misreading me. Once, I vented to her about a situation that was bothering me and she told our other friend, "Tallulah was just so ANGRY! I had no idea how to calm her down!" Kind of blew my mind, because I wasn't angry--just frustrated--and it had nothing to do with her. I just needed to talk my way through it. But SHE would have been angry in that situation, so she assumed I was. Other times, she would try to coax feelings out of me when I was indifferent to a situation. I just can't take stuff like that. If I tell you I don't feel a certain way, believe me. Not believing me is insulting and patronizing. If I feel patronized, I shut down, and I don't want to be around you.

 

[Unique]

I just don't get why it upsets y'all when we don't feel something about a situation. When a Feeler is like, "How do you feel about this?" and my honest-to-God answer is, "I don't," he or she tends to act as if I'm trying to upset them.

I know what emotion feels like. I just don't have an emotional response to every, or even most, situations. This doesn't make me a monster. This makes me an NT.

Or any thinking type for that matter

I agree

Though us SPs are a little more charming about the "I don't" part so they usually don't get annoyed

 

[Spartacuss]

]While I admit they don't often push the issue, I've learned they also don't let it go. On occasion it will be brought up later. At other times they continue as nothing happened, confidant that they were right and basing our future on the flawed assumption.[/B]

QFT. I've seen this exact behavior in infjs, and it's made me think that they are selfishly seeking a conclusion - true or not. At other times it seems calculated to annoy, and annoyance is a reaction, so it's a jackpot.

 

[Verfremdungseffekt]

Mm. It certainly matches my experiences, yes...

 

[Saslou]

.. lol.

I am well aware i can drive NT's crazy if not insane.

Here is a little bit of advice though (if your willing to take it ) from a feeler.

I am not a bloody mind reader. You do great poker faces. If i was to ask a question and you didn't want to answer it. Just explain why you don't want to answer it. Job done.

Example -
Me - why don't you talk about how you feel?
NT - Sarah, i am just process my thoughts and i will get back to you. This is where i currently am and i will tell you my conclusion when i reach it.

 

[Fluffywolf]

.. lol.

I am well aware i can drive NT's crazy if not insane.

Here is a little bit of advice though (if your willing to take it ) from a feeler.

I am not a bloody mind reader. You do great poker faces. If i was to ask a question and you didn't want to answer it. Just explain why you don't want to answer it. Job done.

Example -
Me - why don't you talk about how you feel?
NT - Sarah, i am just process my thoughts and i will get back to you. This is where i currently am and i will tell you my conclusion when i reach it.

There is only one thing that people can do to drive me insane. And it involves stupidity and stubborness. You're most definatly safe.

 

[Saslou]

There is only one thing that people can do to drive me insane. And it involves stupidity and stubborness. You're most definatly safe.

Thank god for that as i thought someone on here might rip me a new asshole. lol .. there is still time.

See i can be stubborn. If i feel an NT is becoming defensive with me, freaking all hell breaks lose as i won't back down. At that point you are fighting logic with logic but from totally different perspectives. For me it just comes down to blunt honesty.

 

[Fluffywolf]

Stubborness in itself is a great aspect. I love it.

But yeah, there's the good kind and the annoying kind which is coupled with stupidity usually.

 

[Tallulah]

Thank god for that as i thought someone on here might rip me a new asshole. lol .. there is still time.

See i can be stubborn. If i feel an NT is becoming defensive with me, freaking all hell breaks lose as i won't back down. At that point you are fighting logic with logic but from totally different perspectives. For me it just comes down to blunt honesty.

But here is the problem. From the feeler's perspective, they might think that there is an emotion that the NT isn't being honest about. From the NT's perspective, they ARE being honest in that they don't feel one way or another about the situation. If I am being honest and someone implies that I'm lying, it's not going to be pretty if the person keeps pushing. Because I will then stop trying to spare your feelings and be nice about it. People are always taken aback when that happens, but sheesh, they are the ones that pushed things too far. Generally, though, I just know that people who push are anathema to me, and we should stay away from each other for the good of society at large.

 

[violaine]

It's been my good fortune to have two INFJs as friends for a few decades now, so the observation of their tenacity comes from the frustrations of communicating with their need to ascribe their emotional response as mine. While I admit they don't often push the issue, I've learned they also don't let it go. On occasion it will be brought up later. At other times they continue as nothing happened, confidant that they were right and basing our future on the flawed assumption. At other times they withdraw from the urge to argue, but with the confidence that they are right, and I am wrong, even though it is my emotional state being discussed. This creates separations, often lasting years. It is my loss. INFJ and INTJ are the types I most enjoy being around, but with the INFJs there are misunderstandings that don't exist with the INTJs.

I recognize this kind of behavior.

For me, it's that I am trying to map someone's internal world. I find most people highly interesting and I am always trying to inform myself. I want to know 'why' about everything. I don't stop trying to figure someone/something out until I reach a conclusion. It's not really about ascribing my feelings to a person in trying to understand their reactions to things. It's more an accidental result of the process of trying to step into their shoes... often times that means I will ascribe certain feelings to things, but I am very open to being corrected.

I also keep revisiting something I don't quite have 'put to bed' as long as a person is open to discussing it. If I sense you are uncomfortable I will leave it be for a while until I can raise it again at a later date when you are comfortable.

I only ever really engage in this when close to someone (it's how I bond with them, I need to know someone deeply and intimately); or if having an intriguing one-off conversation.

In relationships I will be relentless in trying to map my SO's internal world.

It doesn't help that these INFJs avoid exposing the truth of their own feelings at the very time when sharing might bring an understanding of why we're not experiencing the same emotional response to the circumstance.

I'm often not aware that I'm doing this because I am so caught up in my interest in another person. It's a blind spot. When someone points it out to me I make sure I share with them. It's not usually pointed out to me until long after we have talked about whatever was happening with the other person. I guess it can make them uncomfortable if I seem to know a lot about them and they know comparitively little about me. Though that never occurs to me, lol.

But I would like to point out that the above style of engaging is often purely out of interest in people. It often occurs in a very detached, analytical way unless I am close to you. It will also happen when I find someone utterly intriguing. It is for the knowledge and with the hope of predicting behavior and understanding human behavior on a wider scale. It is not Machiavellian.

If someone expresses discomfort to me, I tend to back off and stop engaging them that way.

*sigh* People as puzzles!

 

[Saslou]

But here is the problem. From the feeler's perspective, they might think that there is an emotion that the NT isn't being honest about. From the NT's perspective, they ARE being honest in that they don't feel one way or another about the situation.

OK .. from a different angle, if i can sense something is wrong then i will ask questions. I don't necessarily need to know how you feel about it, just what you think. (something is better than nothing and stops the mind going into overdrive)
The reply .. I think, this, this and this .. job done. Now i may attach emotions to it but i can not assume the other person is doing the same (in theory that sounds great)

Again i can ask a question .. Does that situation make you feel ........... ?
Yes or No would be the reply.
End of conversation.

I am a very caring human being and i protect all those i care about with a passion. Now if your weakness is your feelings just out of curiousity and mine is my thinking .. Is it a really bad thing, can these people not learn a few things from each other.

When i first joined this site i stereotyped all you (especially) NTJ's .. i hated you lot .. You pissed me right off. Now, i have a new found respect for you all, i even like some of you .. hehehe .. Just because we might be at extremes on most things, doesn't mean i can't learn a few things from your logical thinking.

 

[substitute]

Again i can ask a question .. Does that situation make you feel ........... ?
Yes or No would be the reply.
End of conversation.

If only they were all like you. Unfortunately, an awful lot of them will not let that be the end of the conversation, because if you say No, then they want to know how it does make you feel and then argue with whatever you say, telling you you're wrong to feel it or taking your feeling as a judgement on them or someone else. And if you say yes, then ... etc...

I don't think I can remember a single time when I've been asked how I felt, and the asker has been contented with a one word or short answer; can't remember one time in my life when they've asked me that, and weren't spoiling for a heart to heart that became a drama fest.

 

[substitute]

I have had this happen many times with many friends--on occasion this tendency has led to the end of the friendship. One friend, who was really not very close to me, anyway (she was much closer to a couple of my mutual friends, and we kind of ended up being friends because of that factor), was constantly misreading me. Once, I vented to her about a situation that was bothering me and she told our other friend, "Tallulah was just so ANGRY! I had no idea how to calm her down!" Kind of blew my mind, because I wasn't angry--just frustrated--and it had nothing to do with her. I just needed to talk my way through it. But SHE would have been angry in that situation, so she assumed I was. Other times, she would try to coax feelings out of me when I was indifferent to a situation. I just can't take stuff like that. If I tell you I don't feel a certain way, believe me. Not believing me is insulting and patronizing. If I feel patronized, I shut down, and I don't want to be around you.

Yes - just today in fact I had a similar experience. I blogged about people I knew in the past rejecting me since my transition because they couldn't cope with it. Clearly in the post I described that it made me feel hurt, but that I accepted it and didn't blame them. Nowhere did I say I was angry or annoyed at those people or that I didn't think they had their reasons. But along comes an ENFP to lecture me about seeing the other people's points of view, putting words into my mouth by telling me that just because they find it hard to deal with doesn't make them bigoted... she's assuming that because SHE would judge people according to the feelings they cause in her, that if I'm saying something some people do hurts me, I must therefore be angry at them and dislike them.


As for the mind reader thing saslou - I've lost count of the number of times I've been hamstrung because I failed both to psychically guess a Feeler's feelings, and to have the required emotional response, and so got passive aggression (the best kind for the confrontation avoidant) on full blast and all their emotions pinned onto me!

I'm with Tallulah on that when people show these tendencies, the temptation to immadiately cut them out of my life to save myself a lot of unnecessary drama for little reward, is overwhelming. There has to be an outside motive for me to keep putting up with it; it has to benefit someone else in some important way for me to not give them their marching orders.