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  1. #11
    Senior Member Misty_Mountain_Rose's Avatar
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    1) do you guys think you may be showing physiological signs of an emotional response but be unaware you are doing so? Ie you dont know what you are feeling exactly? So the NF picks it up subtle cues, tries to describe it, then screws up as you guys are still not even aware of exactly what is going on yourselves? (Just a Q I really have no idea, so no offense please)

    I think that when these fallouts have happened to me, its mostly the other person mis-interpreting what they're seeing. If I have been talkative all day at work, and suddenly close my office door, there are people here at work who think I'm upset about something when really all I want is to be left alone for a bit because I need a few minutes to myself. Every time I close my door, when I do emerge I have at least 2-3 people asking me what's wrong.

    What they MAY be picking up on is the anxious, semi-irritation at having been so 'on' for a great length of time, but they don't realize it has nothing to do with them or even a specific situation. Its just an urge to get away for a while.

    2) Is it this mistaken perception, or the following persecution that is most offensive? (persecution?? what is that exactly, as thats a crazy strong word, and I hope I'd never do that)

    This is a tossup... while I like to be able to clear up misunderstandings, which used to happen more frequently before I learned how to express myself better, sometimes it can get wearisome and I just kind of give up clearing up the misunderstandings. I let them think what they want, knowing that they're projecting on to me more of what THEY feel than what I feel. Usually this leads them to think they are right though, which can compound the problem. This leads to a very 'I don't care what others think' kind of attitude, which then can be seen as selfish and aloof... which may be true, but it isn't because I don't like them, its because I'm exhausted from trying to explain myself. In the end, its easier just to retract.

    3) Or is that maybe they saw and tried to describe what you were projecting outwards before you had a chance to understand it yourself? And thus it is the presumption that they understand that is so offensive, when you do not understand quite yet.

    No, their assumptions about what I'm feeling are usually just... wrong. Most often then will ascribe motives for my actions that couldn't be further from the truth. I tend to operate on a minute by minute basis without much thought to what others are thinking. I take pretty much everything at face value and wish that others would do the same with me. If someone says they don't want to go to lunch, I don't assume they secretly DO want to go but have some reason for saying No the first time. I don't really play the kinds of games that other people play, and don't understand or even register petty behaviour meant to 'prove a point' to someone. I sit in confused amazement watching the few people I've known well enough who are the kind that are always scheming and wondering what motivates others. I just don't put that much time and energy into worrying about the why and what-for of everyone else. Why bother? I think they are equally confused by my lack of interest or thought on the topics that they brood over.

    4) does it bother you more that they try and descibe your thoughts, your feelings, or your motivations?

    It doesn't bother me that they try to figure out any of the three. What bothers me is when I tell them flat out the thoughts, feelings or motivations and they don't believe me.

    5) Do you find this gets used as tool against you when in conflict with an NF? And then you are assigned feelings, motivations and such which are incorrect. (and on that note, potentially later, after analysis, could some of it have been correct?)

    This drives me insane. I've been in heated arguments with NF's before who vehemently attacked me for not believing them when they tried to tell me how I feel and what motivates me. And no, they don't turn out to be right after analysis.

    I had one of my good NF friends tell me that I purposely reject everything to do with what others consider 'normal' just because I don't want to follow the crowd. His examples were: Tanning, Wearing Designer Clothes, Getting my Hair Done, Shopping, etc. In other words, I don't look and act like a 'normal' woman. I looked at him in confusion and when I told him that I liked my jeans and t-shirts he told me I was a liar and just trying to not follow the crowd. We didn't speak for months after this argument.

    6) is part of the offense that someone would even try and understand your emotions? Ie its none of our business in the first place?

    I don't mind people asking me personal questions... in fact, a lot of times its a relief because I tend not to simply offer the information. I just wish that they would accept my explanation the first time.

    Hope these help
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  2. #12
    Is Willard in Footloose!! CJ99's Avatar
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    1) do you guys think you may be showing physiological signs of an emotional response but be unaware you are doing so? Ie you dont know what you are feeling exactly? So the NF picks it up subtle cues, tries to describe it, then screws up as you guys are still not even aware of exactly what is going on yourselves? (Just a Q I really have no idea, so no offense please)

    Hmm maybe in stressful times but most NTs don't give off much emotional data. Most of what we give off is what we think we need to to not piss off other people.

    2) Is it this mistaken perception, or the following persecution that is most offensive? (persecution?? what is that exactly, as thats a crazy strong word, and I hope I'd never do that)

    Oh hell yeah. If we think your wrong and you insist your right well that pisses off most NTs but when the subjest is our feelings. Seriously just run before we destroy you We NTs like to be in control of ourselves and to know everything so the fact you are trying to say that you know something about oursleves that we don't is sort of scary. Especially when its emotions as we are all too aware that thats are weak spot so while we are insisting you are wrong theres a little voice that goes "well actully we don't know much about that so they could be right "

    3) Or is that maybe they saw and tried to describe what you were projecting outwards before you had a chance to understand it yourself? And thus it is the presumption that they understand that is so offensive, when you do not understand quite yet.


    Yeah well that connects in with the thing about the little voice. Some else knowing something we don't aout something so personal is sorta scary.

    4) does it bother you more that they try and descibe your thoughts, your feelings, or your motivations?

    Yeah that is a factor as NT are frequently not really understood by people in general. So when yet another person tries to understand me its annoying cause less than a handful of people understand me very well and yet more people try and once again fail.

    5) Do you find this gets used as tool against you when in conflict with an NF? And then you are assigned feelings, motivations and such which are incorrect. (and on that note, potentially later, after analysis, could some of it have been correct?)

    Actually most NFs just try and mock me for my lack of emotion like i do to their lack of logic and that approach just fails as my lack of emotion doesn't really bother me as much as they think it would.

    6) is part of the offense that someone would even try and understand your emotions? Ie its none of our business in the first place?


    hmm. At times it annoys me but at times I like being an enigma for them to try crack. Not sure bout this one.
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  3. #13
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I'm wondering if the underlying issue is a sense of dismissal for both parties. To be told you are lying and not knowing or being honest about your true self and feelings is a deep dismissal of the person. When someone labeled as a Feeler does this, they are primarily dismissing the other person. It might be that a lack of emotional response in certain settings can also feel like dismissal. If someone comes home from work and has been treated badly by the people and their Thinker friend has no emotional response, it could be interpreted as dismissal. This kind of thing can go in vicious cycles.

    I'm also wondering is it Feelers who do this or is it people who do this who are called Feelers? I would like to suggest people guard against thinking about the worst few offenders in your life as being anything related to the norm. I guess because the topic is emotion it seems reasonable to assume Feelers overall, but still important to take it with a grain of salt. (although technically Feeler is not equivalent to emotion, so I'm not sure if that is the right assumption)

    Edit: One more thought - in emotional dialog, withdrawal of emotion can be associated with anything from pouting, passive-aggression, anger, disdain, etc. If the assumption is one of emotional communication then withholding doesn't generally have a positive connotation.
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  4. #14
    . Blank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    I'm wondering if the underlying issue is a sense of dismissal for both parties. To be told you are lying and not knowing or being honest about your true self and feelings is a deep dismissal of the person. When someone labeled as a Feeler does this, they are primarily dismissing the other person. It might be that a lack of emotional response in certain settings can also feel like dismissal. If someone comes home from work and has been treated badly by the people and their Thinker friend has no emotional response, it could be interpreted as dismissal. This kind of thing can go in vicious cycles.

    Edit: One more thought - in emotional dialog, withdrawal of emotion can be associated with anything from pouting, passive-aggression, anger, disdain, etc. If the assumption is one of emotional communication then withholding doesn't generally have a positive connotation.
    Good post; I'll have to keep that in mind more often now.

    I don't know, I think there are fundamental differences in the way NTs and Feelers approach things. It's perfectly logical to trust your emotions and act upon them to a certain extent, which is what feelers do, however, as an NT I try to look at a situation objectively.

    Example: Let's say I lost my house. A Feeler could look at me and think I'd be devastated, considering the circumstances and would imply that this was the case. If I denied that, and they pressed the issue, it could seem as though I am heartless or self-destructive, whereas I could look at the situation in numerous ways:

    1. I may not have a house, but it's not like I don't have anywhere to go.
    2. There are many, many more people in a worse situation than I am.
    3. My life isn't over, so there's no point acting like it.

    It would be perfectly natural to break down in that kind of situation, but then I would have to admit that those icky-sticky emotions exist in the first place.
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  5. #15
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blank View Post
    Good post; I'll have to keep that in mind more often now.

    I don't know, I think there are fundamental differences in the way NTs and Feelers approach things. It's perfectly logical to trust your emotions and act upon them to a certain extent, which is what feelers do, however, as an NT I try to look at a situation objectively.

    Example: Let's say I lost my house. A Feeler could look at me and think I'd be devastated, considering the circumstances and would imply that this was the case. If I denied that, and they pressed the issue, it could seem as though I am heartless or self-destructive, whereas I could look at the situation in numerous ways:

    1. I may not have a house, but it's not like I don't have anywhere to go.
    2. There are many, many more people in a worse situation than I am.
    3. My life isn't over, so there's no point acting like it.

    It would be perfectly natural to break down in that kind of situation, but then I would have to admit that those icky-sticky emotions exist in the first place.
    That makes sense. People who deal with crises using emotion vs. excluding emotion are likely to have confusion especially at that point. I will note though that even though I'm an NF, I approach crisis in a rigorously analytical, pragmatic manner. I identify with much of what you said here. If I lost my house there is some place inside me that would be devastated, but I would find it necessary to disregard any energy drain until the problem was solved. There's a good chance I would show no emotion, and put the cards on the table and get to work. Then when it was all settled, I'd probably have headaches and exhaustion for a good month in recuperation from the ordeal. If I did have emotional outbursts during the crisis, they would be planned (I've done that in the past during distressing times). Over the last year I went through a great deal of crisis and uncertainty that required very complex problem solving. I did get raked over the coals a couple of times by people who didn't understand the way I thought about it and was told I was not normal for being analytical in crisis, but that happened between two Feelers. There are thinkers who get quite emotional in crisis because at that point, logic escapes them. The is a strongly individual component here. I'm still not convinced there is much consistency in drawing this as an F vs. T issue, although I can certainly see why the assumption would be there because of the presence of emotions.

    Edit: I'll just add that I have been hurt by lack of emotional response in my life and I've been hurt by people who get angry when I don't communicate feelings. I don't see one as worse than the other. It is all just people being people and having miscommunication. The variety is actually something to be desired and helps to moderate the overall potential for hurt because it allows one to view the problems from different vantage points.
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  6. #16
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Toonia hitting the nail on the head as usual there...

    My main issue with Feelers (when I have those issues, which I don't really in RL very often) is more like this: I do feel things, I'm quite sure I do. Sometimes I'm aware of it, sometimes I'm not. But regardless, that feeling is not the primary motivation behind my words or opinions. It's not where I am to be found.

    Look at it this way. A Feeler might THINK somebody's stupid, but if it's someone they love and care about for other good qualities that they have, then that feeling of love and loyalty overrides the intellectual knowledge that they're stupid. The Feeler would be extremely upset if the person said "But I know that you think I'm less bright than you, so I don't believe you when you say you care about me" - they'd feel like the person was honing in on the wrong part of their make-up and giving it too much significance, whilst not giving enough to the part that really does matter - their feeling of love and loyalty. This process of course happens with Thinkers too, but it's because it's pretty universal and recognizable that I've picked it as an example.

    What I do is the same, but switched round, with a lot of stuff. My ENFJ sister could be telling me some idea she has, and perhaps my initial emotional response is to be amused at how awful the idea is, and how she could even think she had any business running her brain in a direction in which she's so obviously handicapped. However, my intellectual response is more like thinking hey, so what if it's not her specialist subject, there's no harm in listening and she might have a point, sometimes the best stuff comes out of the mouths of babes as it were, so I'm listening with an open mind and taking seriously what she's saying. However she completely ignores the most important part or process, the one that truly makes the decisions, and hones in on her sense that I'm laughing inwardly at her, and reads it as contempt and then says "I know you think I know nothing about this, so you just look at me with contempt and you're not going to listen or respect anything I say". She's giving too much significance to my emotional response and not enough to my intellectual one, which she doesn't even perceive.

    I think that everybody has, to some extent, an ability to notice another person's emotional responses - some better than others, of course. But the only way you can know a person's intellectual response is by asking them and then listening, and paying attention to the words they use. I go to a lot of trouble to say exactly what I mean in words, so it's very frustrating to have my true self as it were, swept aside and dismissed because my sister insists on reading between the lines, and focusing on this, what is to me, utterly irrelevant information, as it has virtually no bearing at all on my decision making and is being repressed and vetoed as we speak, just like the person who loves the stupid person is repressing and vetoing their intellectual knowledge that they're stupid the whole time they're loving them.
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  7. #17
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    Damn... I always figured if I'm close enough to have to really worry an NT is pretty honest with me from the start. One of the reasons I like my room mate so much, I don't have to pry, and when something is expected of me I know it (whether I want to or not somtimes ). Then again, half the complaints I see in this thread are similar to the ones I have with other people.
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  8. #18
    Senior Member Accept's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    1) . . . So the NF picks it up subtle cues, tries to describe it, then screws up as you guys are still not even aware of exactly what is going on yourselves? (Just a Q I really have no idea, so no offense please)
    Everyone else seems to have the issue covered, so what I might add is that it no longer bothers me. In accepting that an NF has to be true to their nature, it can be interesting to listen to their analysis of what I must be feeling. They are rarely correct in the assumption, yet to disagree is to encourage them to argue over something that doesn't exist, and doesn't really matter. It's far less troublesome to endorse them by admitting they are probably right, and if they're still giving me that NF look of understanding, to thank them for making me realize what I am supposedly feeling. It seems to work, sometimes.

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  9. #19
    Senior Member Misty_Mountain_Rose's Avatar
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    lol, patronize them... I never considered that tactic
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  10. #20
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    Eh, if they're so annoying you don't want them near anyway, it probably works. I'd smell a rat, but then I'd leave you alone anyway; lack of honesty is likely the most effective way to indirectly tell me to fuck off.
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

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