[MBTI General] Do N and T really go together?

[Blank]

Truth trees? Pies? Is a pie with truth filling tasty like cherries?

I NEED TO KNOW THESE THINGS!

 

[juggernaut]

Truth trees? Pies? Is a pie with truth filling tasty like cherries?

I NEED TO KNOW THESE THINGS!

Better!

But if you want to know what they really taste like:

Method of analytic tableaux - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(It's actually a ridiculous way to navigate one's emotional life, but it's a cool way to figure out the possible outcomes of arguments that have a number of different modals involved)

 

[Blackwater]

entropie: But that doesnt mean the NT is more prone to have less Ne. If you would have a more Te prone ENFP for example, this could also work as a regulating mechanism for him.

Yes, the actual amount of Ne would and could be the same. The difference lies in the restraint or the indulgence of said Ne.

Te will restrain Ne, but theoretically not as much as Ti because (1) Te is a tertiary function in ENFPs and (2) because what mediates self-indulgent behavior (such as talking too much (Ne) is introverted jugdment (Ti/Fi).

Now I'm not saying its impossible for Fi to restrain Ne, just that I haven't seen this self-discipline yet, nor understood the theoretical basis of how this should be done

jenocyde: I don't understand what you mean by "split", can you please explain?

by split i mean percentages of the population at large. the ratio of xSFx to xSTx is roughly 50/50 whereas the ratio of xNFx to is roughly 67/33.

blackwater: Lots of potential whims will automatically be filtered from conciousness of the NT.

jenocyde: How are you basing this?

Gifts Differing, for example, says that Thinkiers dismiss irrelevancies.
Jung says so as well.

or more philosophically, logic is impersonal (although it can certainly be construed) - logic only allows for certain conclusions and so restricts the no. of possiblie conclusions one can come to on a topic.

by contrast, if feeling is defined as in opposition to logic and person-based (rather than object or systems-based) and pertaining to what values are true for the individual, then we have the standpoint of Protagoras:

"The way things appear to me, in that way they exist for me; and the way things appears to you, in that way they exist for you"​

which allows for an endless number of conclusions

Blackwater: Though Athenian200, even though you could argue that from an indoling point of view N and T do not naturally go together, don't you think that sometimes, the adverse effects of the NT combination turn out to be better than the synergic effects of the NF combination? - Here I am thinking specifically of the ENTPs vs. ENFPs: Ne-users can really be a strain, talking too much and trusting blindly in their whim and spontaneous associations. With Ti, Ne is disciplined whereas with Fi, Ne is encouraged, regardless of the actual worth of the Ne.

jenocyde:This is completely subjective and irrelevant, imo.

i abhor statements like these. if you're going to dismiss what I have, at least take the trouble to formulate an actual critique. thanks.

jenocyde: N being with T must be natural, I don't believe that any of us are unnatural.

ok, natural isn't the best word.

let me give you another example of what I mean: 1,5% of the ethnic arab population naturally have blue eyes and red/blond hair and yet people say that it is 'natural' for arabs to have black hair and brown eyes.

in the same way, most iNtuitives are Feelers, but ~33% of them are Thinkers.

we could also call it 'expected' or another word all together.

jenocyde: I think that if people are saying that N and F are "feminine traits" and S and T are "masculine traits", then NT or SF should be more balanced, not less balanced

that was actually what I was getting at above ("the adverse effects of the NT combination turn out to be better than the synergic effects of the NF combination"), only you were too busy dismissing me out of hand to notice. hooray for you! :rolli:

 

[juggernaut]

in the same way, most iNtuitives are Feelers, but ~33% of them are Thinkers.

Really? Where did this figure come from?

Just the same, isn't that a third of all Ns? A third is substantially greater than the 1.5% you referenced in your analogy. As a matter of fact, a third is just about large enough to say NT is natural, IMO.

 

[simulatedworld]

^ According to a study by Myers, NFs comprise about 16% of the population and NTs comprise about 11%.

SJs are most common among the general population, followed by SPs, then NFs, then NTs.

Apparently a majority of Ns are Fs (though not as much as 2/3), but this changes when you look at individual genders--for men, most common to rarest temperaments go SJ, SP, NT, NF...and for women, SP actually becomes more common than NF by a slight margin--they go SJ, NF, SP, NT.

Of course these are all extrapolated from a smaller study of about 3000 people, but there's some basic data to work with, anyway.

 

[juggernaut]

^Berry interestink!

Thank you SW.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

...and for women, SP actually becomes more common than NF by a slight margin--they go SJ, NF, SP, NT.

Did you mean less common? If so, as per this website the order would actually be SJ, SP, NF, NT, with there being approximately 7 percent more SP women than NF women. And the same order for men.

 

[juggernaut]

Good gawd, it's an SF world!

 

[Blackwater]

i looked it up in my books.

the study you cite concluded that we had about 43% SFs 30% STs 16% NFs and 11% NTs.

so maybe its just my math that is rusty but from what I remember:

11 + 16 = 27

11/27 = 40,7% NTs and 59,3% NFs.

so i was wrong about the specifics but the general point i made is still valid, is it not?

juggernaut: Just the same, isn't that a third of all Ns? A third is substantially greater than the 1.5% you referenced in your analogy. As a matter of fact, a third is just about large enough to say NT is natural, IMO.

lol, we have a classic Te/Ti clash with me focusing on the principle and you focusing on the actual numbers from a Ti point of view, unless you want to say that something is natural or unnatural based on its frequency, the actual percentages of the two analogies do not necessarily have to match.

simulatedworld: im not sure i buy the proposal that there should be more female NFs than SPs. i have some other studies I will look into shortlyyy

 

[juggernaut]

i looked it up in my books.

the study you cite concluded that we had about 43% SFs 30% STs 16% NFs and 11% NTs.

so maybe its just my math that is rusty but from what I remember:

11 + 16 = 27

11/27 = 40,7% NTs and 59,3% NFs.

so i was wrong about the specifics but the general point i made is still valid, is it not?

Hmmm, it just seems to be the case that the frequency NFs in the population is slighter higher, but not necessarily more "natural". A 1.5% frequency would seem to indicate something much less normal than something that occurs 41% of the time. I see this as more of a green-eyed/blue-eyed divide rather than normal/abnormal dichotomy. NTs are just a little less common, but the function pairing itself is no less natural, or normal, than NF.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I didn't get a chance to read the whole thread, but in some models of understanding thoughts and behaviors, logic and intuition are placed at opposing ends of a continuum. Even in the old Star Trek dichotomy of Mr. Spock and Kirk we find this way of organizing thought explored.

MBTI organizes this differently and there are examples where intuition and logic can work in tandem. The thread i started about Susan Polgar, a chess genius, demonstrates a way of combining these two thought processes.

I'm not convinced that placing logic and intuition at mutually exclusive poles is correct in the same way logic and empathy don't function at mutually exclusive poles. There is the possibility for the presence or absence of rational, logical thought, but what replaces logic/reason in its absence? Is it by default intuition or empathy? I have not heard a compelling case for a specific thought process that by default fills in for the lack of logic. You could certainly put logical and illogical at opposite poles, but being illogical is more an absence of reason than the presence of a certain way of thinking. The absence of intuition does not by nature produce logic any more than the absence of empathy produces logic.

 

[Blackwater]

in casual terms i understand you

in formal terms, normal and natural are not the same.

but its no big deal, as i said, i will wave the word 'natural' in favour of a better one

 

[Blank]

Let's say N is a planet.

T is a satellite with laser beams destroying all of the stupid people of planet N.

 

[Costrin]

Let's say N is a planet.

T is a satellite with laser beams destroying all of the stupid people of planet N.

And conversely, leaving all the smart ones.

 

[Blank]

And conversely, leaving all the smart ones.

I don't really think that that needed to be pointed out. vv

 

[Costrin]

I don't really think that that needed to be pointed out. vv

You'd think so, but you'd be surprised.

 

[Blank]

But now all of the stupid people are onto us.

 

[Athenian200]

But now all of the stupid people are onto us.

Don't worry. Anyone could have gotten it beforehand.

If you destroy all the stupid people (let's say people with an IQ < 120), only smart people could be left (IQ => 120).

I only have an IQ of 112, and I still got it before it was explained. It hardly required genius to figure out. Really wasn't that clever.

 

[Thalassa]

But now all of the stupid people are onto us.

I think there's something stupid about people who blindly assume that logic is the only form of intelligence by which one can be measured.

 

[Athenian200]

I think there's something stupid about people who blindly assume that logic is the only form of intelligence by which one can be measured.

Well, logic and intelligence are usually used interchangeably. It's not hard to imagine that some people think they're the same thing.

I say let them have the word "intelligence." We still have other words that can measure us in other ways. Stupid shouldn't be such an insult if a person has other positive qualities. It just tends to be, for some reason.