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[MBTI General] Do N and T really go together?

Sentura

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I wanted to add: in the end, everybody uses a mixture of F and T, therefore the OP question is flawed from the beginning, disregarding of whats said here.

word, brother
 

Athenian200

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too much N is bad for your health. N is checked by S and T. Meaning that T and S help stabilize the N. F is more complementry to N. I hope that expklains what you want to know.

Yep, that was all I meant... that F was complementary rather than checking it.

Well, INFJs and ENFPs aren't exactly the most stable people, so you could have a point...
 

juggernaut

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Hmmm, I'm still very puzzled about this notion of N and F being complimentary functions. My F has a very strange way of making a mess of N. Things like doubt, apprehension, admiration, all muddle the clarity of N. I, personally, want as much distance as possible from F after it's gotten the ball rolling. The unfolding of thought (the N part of the game) tends to go much more smoothly when F stays in the background.
 

Blank

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I can't believe I read this entire thread. -_-

I personally think that too much focus has been placed on just NT. Being an NT is only half of it. You can be an NT, but the type of NT is also on how you experience reality, through perception or judgment.

As an INTP, while I do use NT to sort through things, a lot of it also depends on how I get to the starting point with Perception. Even if I was a J, my thought process would be pretty different.

Anyway, here's an example of an INTP's thought processes, brought on by Costrin's sig quote that the foundation of all humor is in truth or something like that.

Step 1:
Noticing the quote and thinking on it (P)

Step 2: Contemplation
1st layer thought: I don't think that's true.
2nd (Si): Stereotypes aren't really true, yet there are many humorous stereotypical jokes.
3rd (Fi, WTF, an INTP using Fi!?): I may just not want to accept that some stereotypes are based in reality since that goes against my value system, MOVING ON!
4th (Ne): Well, a dog jumping out of a car and then rolling around is funny, but is there a truth like that associated with the stereotype thing?
5th (Ti): Well, I suppose the "truth" is that it actually happened in reality.
6th (Ti): Well, if you want to argue from that point, then I suppose everything "truly" happens in reality, so I will concede that point.

Step 3: Doublecheck and (possible) Conclusion
I will, for now, say that since everything tends to be based in reality, which is objectively "true," Costrin can adequately defend that quote if I challenged him and he used that angle; however, the nature of truth is unstable and undefinable at best so the argument would get nowhere if I choose to argue semantics. -Route 1.

Step 4: Revision
Ideas(Ne) --> Conclusion(Ti) --> Route 2

==========
Note* If I happen to intuitively bring up a novel thought and rationalize it thoroughly enough to where I see it is impeccable, I could choose to accept it and give it inner value, influencing my perception of the world until it is proven wrong or until a better solution replaces it.

I think as an NT, I'm more open to the world throwing me a curveball and alternating my path than say, an ST (who is rigid) or an NF (who could be thrown out of equilibrium.)
 

Costrin

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Anyway, here's an example of an INTP's thought processes, brought on by Costrin's sig quote that the foundation of all humor is in truth or something like that.

Step 1:
Noticing the quote and thinking on it (P)

Step 2: Contemplation
1st layer thought: I don't think that's true.
2nd (Si): Stereotypes aren't really true, yet there are many humorous stereotypical jokes.
3rd (Fi, WTF, an INTP using Fi!?): I may just not want to accept that some stereotypes are based in reality since that goes against my value system, MOVING ON!
4th (Ne): Well, a dog jumping out of a car and then rolling around is funny, but is there a truth like that associated with the stereotype thing?
5th (Ti): Well, I suppose the "truth" is that it actually happened in reality.
6th (Ti): Well, if you want to argue from that point, then I suppose everything "truly" happens in reality, so I will concede that point.

Step 3: Doublecheck and (possible) Conclusion
I will, for now, say that since everything tends to be based in reality, which is objectively "true," Costrin can adequately defend that quote if I challenged him and he used that angle; however, the nature of truth is unstable and undefinable at best so the argument would get nowhere if I choose to argue semantics. -Route 1.

Step 4: Revision
Ideas(Ne) --> Conclusion(Ti) --> Route 2

Wee!

But even a blatantly false statement has an element of truth. Not necessarily in the objective literal definition of the statement, but in the making and the knowledge required to understand it, there is a truth. "Elephants are fish" is blatantly false, but there is the truth that elephants exist at least in concept, that fish is a type of classification that elephants could theoretically be classified under, that elephants are not in fact fish and it would be ridiculous to think they are. Then there's the truths of the thought process of the author of the statement at the time it was made, and the context of the statement, the possible intended interpretations, etc. And the "anti-truths", or truth that some concept or another is false or does not exist, is not present, etc. *insert meta-etc here*
 

Thalassa

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NT must go together or there wouldn't be Western philosophy.

As for SF not going together, I actually think they do, in fact, go together. Sensing + Feeling = Sensualism, which seems more common to me than NF (it is actually more common in the general population, n'est-ce pas?)
 

Sentura

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Hmmm, I'm still very puzzled about this notion of N and F being complimentary functions. My F has a very strange way of making a mess of N. Things like doubt, apprehension, admiration, all muddle the clarity of N. I, personally, want as much distance as possible from F after it's gotten the ball rolling. The unfolding of thought (the N part of the game) tends to go much more smoothly when F stays in the background.

how does your T react to all of this, out of curiosity?
 

juggernaut

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how does your T react to all of this, out of curiosity?

This series of posts? They're interesting to watch. Marmalade's post is probably the most reasonable one so far...and it probably goes a long way in explaining my own life choices.

What are your thoughts on it?
 

Athenian200

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NT must go together or there wouldn't be Western philosophy.

I'm not an NT, and I think Western philosophy makes perfect sense. More than almost anything else I know of. I even came up with ideas similar or the same as those contained in it, just through contemplation, before ever being exposed to it. :yes:

Why do you say this? What do NTs have to do with it? I always had the impression that they, in general, were more about applying knowledge in a practical way, or figuring out new ways of doing or viewing things. I figured philosophy was just an N hobby, not an NT hobby (since it's usually not objective or useful). Otherwise, I probably wouldn't have called myself "Athenian."
As for SF not going together, I actually think they do, in fact, go together. Sensing + Feeling = Sensualism, which seems more common to me than NF (it is actually more common in the general population, n'est-ce pas?)

Okay, I admit I didn't put much thought into the SF one. I was mostly just focused on the NT one.
 

Thalassa

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I'm not an NT, and I think Western philosophy makes perfect sense. More than almost anything else I know of. I even came up with ideas similar or the same as those contained in it, just through contemplation, before ever being exposed to it. :yes:

.


Although you may agree with Western philosophy, you didn't create it. I'm not going to generalize, but I would be willing to bet that many people who actually "do" Philosophy professionally are NTs because it requires the ability for subjective analysis and insight that some NFs also have, but I think that NT would be more prone to stick with logic even when his or her values were challenged. Logical thinking is absolutely imperitive to actually "doing" most Western Philosophy. Again, I don't want to generalize, because not all Western Philsophy is even the same (for example, I think that Kant was much more rational than Nietszche).

Of course there's a subjective choice in Western Philosophy, say between Rousseau and Hobbes, or even for an existentialist between Nietszche and Sartre.

But I think an NT would be best at logically deconstructing why Ayn Rand wasn't really a philosopher, where as an NF just might keep arguing points of Rand's that he or she didn't agree with.
 

Sentura

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This series of posts? They're interesting to watch. Marmalade's post is probably the most reasonable one so far...and it probably goes a long way in explaining my own life choices.

What are your thoughts on it?

i wasn't making myself clear i think. in those situations where your F gives you apprehension, doubt etc., what does your T do?
 

Athenian200

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Although you may agree with Western philosophy, you didn't create it.

Actually, I did create something like it in my own mind independently. But it turned out later the ideas had already been expressed by someone else, so it didn't mean anything to anyone when I expressed them. Sigh. :(

I'm not going to generalize, but I would be willing to bet that many people who actually "do" Philosophy professionally are NTs because it requires the ability for subjective analysis and insight that some NFs also have, but I think that NT would be more prone to stick with logic even when his or her values were challenged. Logical thinking is absolutely imperitive to actually "doing" most Western Philosophy. Again, I don't want to generalize, because not all Western Philsophy is even the same (for example, I think that Kant was much more rational than Nietszche).

My impression was that philosophy was about "why" (N) rather than "how" (T). I suppose there might be some more method-oriented philosophies that appeal to a T specifically.

NTs are already better than us at math, strategy, science, and logic. I just thought we would at least be on equal footing in philosophy. If you say they're better at it, though... I guess it seems likely considering that they're good at everything else.
 

Haphazard

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I don't see how one can say that "T" does not make sense with "N" by using the argument that "limits (as in logic, in this case) restrain creativity".

No, it does not at all. In fact, limits foster creativity, forcing you to be clever to play with them, surpass them, and use them to your advantage. N is T's devil's advocate. They have a lot of fun together, and actually go together quite well.
 

Thalassa

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I think they're better at it professionally - that means by academia standards. That doesn't mean that I think that they're necessarily better or right. It requires NTs to hold up those academic standards that are prevalent in Western Society. Logic plays a very strong role in professional, academic philsophy - hence I say NTs are better at it.

The mistake I think that some people make is that they equivocate being more logical with being smarter. Logic isn't everything, it's just one type of thinking. It's absolutely necessary, but other types of thinking are necessary too.

From what I understand NFs are supposed to be better at things like creative writing, counseling, comparative literature, and politics. If our minds work well for politics than we must have some strengths in philosophy. Again - I don't like to generalize.
 

juggernaut

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i wasn't making myself clear i think. in those situations where your F gives you apprehension, doubt etc., what does your T do?

Gotcha...Generally T just stomps the shit out F when this happens. I, quite literally, will either logically (say with a reductio or direct proof) try to figure things out how by writing out the premises and conclusions of an argument. If that doesn't work I look for someone more knowledgeable to help me work through the spots where I'm stuck. The latter is nothing but old school dialogue, or the Socratic method. If there's no one around, I refer to the literature and review the arguments about whatever it is I'm having trouble with. Whatever the route I choose, when I'm trying to work through something...anything for that matter... F gets locked in the closet until I'm satisfied that I've gone as far as I can go. :nerd:
 

juggernaut

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Actually, I did create something like it in my own mind independently. But it turned out later the ideas had already been expressed by someone else, so it didn't mean anything to anyone when I expressed them. Sigh. :(



My impression was that philosophy was about "why" (N) rather than "how" (T). I suppose there might be some more method-oriented philosophies that appeal to a T specifically.

NTs are already better than us at math, strategy, science, and logic. I just thought we would at least be on equal footing in philosophy. If you say they're better at it, though... I guess it seems likely considering that they're good at everything else.

Philosophy as it is practiced in the West is as much about the how as it is the why. Every one of the subjects you listed began and ends with philosophy. There is no math or science or logic without it.
 

Blank

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I started most of my life-philosophizing when I was about ten and through time drew many consistent/parallel conclusions with leading philosophers of different backgrounds without ever having read their materials.

I'm actually a member of my college's philosophy club and at first I was intimidated because I thought my peers would be so much more well-read or apt at philosophy than I am, however, due to the nature of philosophy and my ability to think on my feet regarding the subject, I am rarely shocked or unable to debate what I see as the most rational or progressive view on any given subject.

This being said, I will agree that NT's are able to sort of "conjure" up different philosophical ideas, however, I will attest that other members can state things so thought-provokingly and... wise? Down to earth? Oh well, I can't articulate it properly. Anyway, anyone can philosophize, it doesn't really matter what type you're more preferable to sorting information with. I, in fact, rather enjoy having discussions with intelligent intuitive and sensing feelers because they can bring the spiritual down to earth. It's really refreshing. Kudos to you guys.
 

norepinephrine

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This being said, I will agree that NT's are able to sort of "conjure" up different philosophical ideas, however, I will attest that other members can state things so thought-provokingly and... wise? Down to earth? Oh well, I can't articulate it properly. Anyway, anyone can philosophize, it doesn't really matter what type you're more preferable to sorting information with. I, in fact, rather enjoy having discussions with intelligent intuitive and sensing feelers because they can bring the spiritual down to earth. It's really refreshing. Kudos to you guys.

An apt description of how I often feel reading posts. Somewhere between "Why didn't I see it that way before" and "Wow, that was succinct".
 

norepinephrine

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Gotcha...Generally T just stomps the shit out F when this happens. I, quite literally, will either logically (say with a reductio or direct proof) try to figure things out how by writing out the premises and conclusions of an argument. If that doesn't work I look for someone more knowledgeable to help me work through the spots where I'm stuck. The latter is nothing but old school dialogue, or the Socratic method. If there's no one around, I refer to the literature and review the arguments about whatever it is I'm having trouble with. Whatever the route I choose, when I'm trying to work through something...anything for that matter... F gets locked in the closet until I'm satisfied that I've gone as far as I can go. :nerd:

My T has resorted to creating pie charts to illustrate specific aspects of interpersonal relationships. No - I didn't actually share them with anyone. Yes, I did feel like an idiot while doing it.

But it helped.
 

juggernaut

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My T has resorted to creating pie charts to illustrate specific aspects of interpersonal relationships. No - I didn't actually share them with anyone. Yes, I did feel like an idiot while doing it.

But it helped.

You do that too?? LOL! I also love truth trees. My whole world can be broken into a series of little binary relations. Of course people would be appalled at the extent to which I use them, so they generally end up balled up in the trash or in a shredder, but oh how happy they make me (I don't even care that it's probably evidence that I'm an even bigger emotional retard than most people would have imagined).

So yeah, N and T is definitely a good pairing. :hug:
 
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