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  1. #31
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Oh, NFs think NTs are broken and unnatural. Didn't see that one coming, at all.



  2. #32
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    I thought this was common knowledge. N and T don't naturally go together, neither do N and J. Doesn't mean they don't work well together, because they do.

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Oh, NFs think NTs are broken and unnatural. Didn't see that one coming, at all.
    Not at all

    I'm trying to figure out where this discussion got twisted.

  3. #33
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Yeah, sensotard moment on my part. Used to using the word in another context and in another language.


    But don't get too worked up about it. You are "more whole" then that. Here, have a joint.
    Who said I was worked up?

    but I'll take the joint, though...

  4. #34
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Who said I was worked up?

    but I'll take the joint, though...
    Well, used to see cursing and facepalmz has having a meaning of some sort. But I also keep forgetting ENTPs don't get worked up. :P


    (Pfffft. Yeah right!)



    And...here...behold Bobbus Supremus

  5. #35
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    The NT way is the only way.

    *RA-TA-TA-TA-TA*

    On a more serious note, they go very well together. Most of the times they go so well together that no other type is capable of following the wellness and togetherness of N and T, and then they go all 'Immmmmmmmmpossible!' on the togetherness and wellness of N and T.

    Impossible!
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  6. #36
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well... no. Of course not. But it is more subjective than, say, sensing. I'm saying that the whole process of creativity, curiosity, imagination... there's something about it that seems to involve a certain kind of irrationality, a kind of passion/obsessiveness. Not the kind of sensitivity or passion you see in feelings. But it seems like NTs try to eliminate those elements and reduce the ideas entirely into simple, linear, impersonal logic.
    Your Ni haz a flava: Fe. (The auxiliary gives form to the dominant.)

    Automatic soul. It's full of pictures and tones and generative images and people. (I assume.)

    My Ni is Te-flavoured and automatically soulless because Te is about things and processes.

    That is, it's soulless if the tertiary is ignored. Which it can't be. I am a real boy.

    As for being linear... it's not. It's connection between this truth and that. It's as linear as the connection between this feeling and that. That's true even if one is an NT stuck with Ti. (I believe.)


    So sez I. And here endeth the manifesto. I must change my pants.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    I thought this was common knowledge. N and T don't naturally go together, neither do N and J. Doesn't mean they don't work well together, because they do.
    They don't?

    *off to have an identity crisis now...*

  8. #38
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    I understand wherre Athenian200 is comming from.

    Studies show, that even though the MBTI prides itself on measuring four distinct traits, N and P turn out to be positively correlated. The more intuitarded you are, the more percieving you will also be.*

    (* Now how does this relate to dominant intuitives whom nobody would classify as P such as retentive INTJs? - Well the INTJ is in fact able to see many points of view, only they see them inside themselves, in their internal mind's eye. This is what Jung meant when he classified INTJ as a subjective/irrational type.)

    In the same way, while the ST/SF split is close to 50/50, the NF/NT split is more like 66/33. So indeed, we have reason to believe that N has some sort of affinity with F.
    I do agree with the part about N and P, actually. I might be able to make N and J work together, but there's definitely conflict there.

    Athenian200 is also right in saying that T is restricting N: Lots of potential whims will automatically be filtered from conciousness of the NT. Sloganistically speaking, T forces thought into certain patterns whereas F only forces N out of certain thought-trails, namely the ones that are uncomfortable to the F and/or his established values. (INTJs do this as well, but they are, after all closet NFs.)
    Yes, that's what I was thinking.
    ---
    Though Athenian200, even though you could argue that from an indoling point of view N and T do not naturally go together, don't you think that sometimes, the adverse effects of the NT combination turn out to be better than the synergic effects of the NF combination? - Here I am thinking specifically of the ENTPs vs. ENFPs: Ne-users can really be a strain, talking too much and trusting blindly in their whim and spontaneous associations. With Ti, Ne is disciplined whereas with Fi, Ne is encouraged, regardless of the actual worth of the Ne.
    Aha, yes. In a sense, T disciplines N, forces it to be "productive" or something. A person with N and T has a more balanced mind because they force themselves to judge all their ideas according to a simple, impersonal system. They might be more intelligent because of how their creative side responds to being trapped within the simple, linear awareness of Thinking.

  9. #39
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Your Ni haz a flava: Fe. (The auxiliary gives form to the dominant.)

    Automatic soul. It's full of pictures and tones and generative images and people. (I assume.)
    That's too generous, actually. Etiquette and social hierarchy would be a closer description of what my Fe is looking at. Which of course means... yeah, I'm stuck subjecting everything to rules as well.
    My Ni is Te-flavoured and automatically soulless because Te is about things and processes.

    That is, it's soulless if the tertiary is ignored. Which it can't be. I am a real boy.

    As for being linear... it's not. It's connection between this truth and that. It's as linear as the connection between this feeling and that. That's true even if one is an NT stuck with Ti. (I believe.)
    This isn't about being soulless. It's more about the way logic force-fits intuition into a simple, linear frame. Although I suppose the same argument could be made about N and J as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Oh, NFs think NTs are broken and unnatural. Didn't see that one coming, at all.
    I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make you feel broken and unnatural with my idea. I was merely trying to point out how they seem to originate from different places in the mind (and thus are based on conflicting methodologies about how reality should be processed), and then are forced to work together. The crossover might even result in a more disciplined, useful imagination. Hence NT intelligence... the result of the constant mental challenge of trying to reconcile these two processes.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I've actually been wondering for a while now. It seems like ST and NF make sense, but NT and SF don't.

    An ST uses specific, sensed details, and reasons in a linear, impersonal fashion. Basically, the calculator/bean-counter type. I can see those two going together well.

    An NF uses their imagination and instinct to get an idea of the "essence" of things, and then weighs this according to their subjective sense of value. These two also go well together.

    An NT also uses their imagination and instinct to get an idea of the "essence" of things, and then... reasons in a linear, impersonal fashion?

    Intuition is a highly unconscious, somewhat subjective process. It relies on a kind of vague instinct, a subjective perception that can't be expressed literally. So why, then, would you go ahead and stuff all of that into a simplistic, impersonal box that's better suited to simple details? You're perceiving reality subjectively, and then trying to turn around and throw away all of the instinct and irrational process that gave rise to the idea in the first place, to clean it up and push it through a simplistic, linear, impersonal process that can't possibly capture much of what was perceived.

    It's almost like it turns against itself halfway through the process in a half-hearted effort to make an appeal that will be listened to by "bean-counter" types.

    So, what is an NT, really? Is it an Intuitive that was forced to discipline their imagination into working with logic? Is it a conflicted person who tried to set up a strange compromise between the rational and irrational parts of their mind? Is it someone who wants to hide/destroy their own sensitivity for some reason?
    I know that if you're an NT, you might very well understand how it is they go together, and may even think that N and F don't go well together. I'm just curious as to why those processes should work together, and how they fit together for you.
    I have the song from Grease in my head: we go together like....rama lama lama ke ding a de dinga a dong...

    Oh, and NT - non-linear logic? Global picture rather than the actual steps, still within the model of logical systems?

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