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  1. #11
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I wanted to add: in the end, everybody uses a mixture of F and T, therefore the OP question is flawed from the beginning, disregarding of whats said here.
    +1000000

  2. #12
    Senior Member Blackwater's Avatar
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    I understand wherre Athenian200 is comming from.

    Studies show, that even though the MBTI prides itself on measuring four distinct traits, N and P turn out to be positively correlated. The more intuitarded you are, the more percieving you will also be.*

    (* Now how does this relate to dominant intuitives whom nobody would classify as P such as retentive INTJs? - Well the INTJ is in fact able to see many points of view, only they see them inside themselves, in their internal mind's eye. This is what Jung meant when he classified INTJ as a subjective/irrational type.)

    In the same way, while the ST/SF split is close to 50/50, the NF/NT split is more like 66/33. So indeed, we have reason to believe that N has some sort of affinity with F.

    Athenian200 is also right in saying that T is restricting N: Lots of potential whims will automatically be filtered from conciousness of the NT. Sloganistically speaking, T forces thought into certain patterns whereas F only forces N out of certain thought-trails, namely the ones that are uncomfortable to the F and/or his established values. (INTJs do this as well, but they are, after all closet NFs.)

    ---

    Though Athenian200, even though you could argue that from an indoling point of view N and T do not naturally go together, don't you think that sometimes, the adverse effects of the NT combination turn out to be better than the synergic effects of the NF combination? - Here I am thinking specifically of the ENTPs vs. ENFPs: Ne-users can really be a strain, talking too much and trusting blindly in their whim and spontaneous associations. With Ti, Ne is disciplined whereas with Fi, Ne is encouraged, regardless of the actual worth of the Ne.
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  3. #13
    DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I've actually been wondering for a while now. It seems like ST and NF make sense, but NT and SF don't.

    An ST uses specific, sensed details, and reasons in a linear, impersonal fashion. Basically, the calculator/bean-counter type. I can see those two going together well.

    An NF uses their imagination and instinct to get an idea of the "essence" of things, and then weighs this according to their subjective sense of value. These two also go well together.

    An NT also uses their imagination and instinct to get an idea of the "essence" of things, and then... reasons in a linear, impersonal fashion?

    Intuition is a highly unconscious, somewhat subjective process. It relies on a kind of vague instinct, a subjective perception that can't be expressed literally. So why, then, would you go ahead and stuff all of that into a simplistic, impersonal box that's better suited to simple details? You're perceiving reality subjectively, and then trying to turn around and throw away all of the instinct and irrational process that gave rise to the idea in the first place, to clean it up and push it through a simplistic, linear, impersonal process that can't possibly capture much of what was perceived.

    It's almost like it turns against itself halfway through the process in a half-hearted effort to make an appeal that will be listened to by "bean-counter" types.

    So, what is an NT, really? Is it an Intuitive that was forced to discipline their imagination into working with logic? Is it a conflicted person who tried to set up a strange compromise between the rational and irrational parts of their mind? Is it someone who wants to hide/destroy their own sensitivity for some reason?

    I know that if you're an NT, you might very well understand how it is they go together, and may even think that N and F don't go well together. I'm just curious as to why those processes should work together, and how they fit together for you.


    Imo, the problem is your conception of Logic. "Being T" and thinking all the time is a cognitive process. Logic is a "force of reason" that will drive differing parties towards the same answer, given the SAME starting points of those parties. They arent' synonymous.

    It is difficult to describe how a "logical crosscheck mechanism" can fit in with something like Ne, however, so you're right about that. If I had to guess, I'd say it just helps my Ne/scenario imagining be as "real" and plausible as I can make it. (or what Blackwater said hehe )

  4. #14
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    Here I am thinking specifically of the ENTPs vs. ENFPs: Ne-users can really be a strain, talking too much and trusting blindly in their whim and spontaneous associations. With Ti, Ne is disciplined whereas with Fi, Ne is encouraged, regardless of the actual worth of the Ne.
    But that doesnt mean the NT is more prone to have less Ne. If you would have a more Te prone ENFP for example, this could also work as a regulating mechanism for him.

    I still dont get the point to the topic.
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  5. #15
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    I don't know what think about this, but I have thought the same before. N and F being more natural partners than N and T.

    I just think "Thinking" is perhaps inherently less holistic maybe....if that makes sense.

  6. #16
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    In the same way, while the ST/SF split is close to 50/50, the NF/NT split is more like 66/33. So indeed, we have reason to believe that N has some sort of affinity with F.
    I don't understand what you mean by "split", can you please explain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    Athenian200 is also right in saying that T is restricting N: Lots of potential whims will automatically be filtered from conciousness of the NT. Sloganistically speaking, T forces thought into certain patterns whereas F only forces N out of certain thought-trails, namely the ones that are uncomfortable to the F and/or his established values. (INTJs do this as well, but they are, after all closet NFs.)
    How are you basing this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    Though Athenian200, even though you could argue that from an indoling point of view N and T do not naturally go together, don't you think that sometimes, the adverse effects of the NT combination turn out to be better than the synergic effects of the NF combination? - Here I am thinking specifically of the ENTPs vs. ENFPs: Ne-users can really be a strain, talking too much and trusting blindly in their whim and spontaneous associations. With Ti, Ne is disciplined whereas with Fi, Ne is encouraged, regardless of the actual worth of the Ne.
    This is completely subjective and irrelevant, imo.

    And N being with T must be natural, I don't believe that any of us are unnatural.

    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I still dont get the point to the topic.
    +1

    I think that if people are saying that N and F are "feminine traits" and S and T are "masculine traits", then NT or SF should be more balanced, not less balanced - like yin and yang...

    And thinking is not less holistic. Thinking and feeling is what makes you whole in the first place.
    Last edited by jenocyde; 05-26-2009 at 08:04 PM.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    And thinking is not less holistic. Thinking and feeling is what makes you whole in the first place.
    Uh?

    What ever do you mean by "whole" and how is that relevant?

  8. #18
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I am surprised you all do think N and T doesnt go together. I think its the key essence to nearly every scientific effort.

    Those guys probably in those days, who came up with the idea to find some better belief than the church offered them, to enable people to see that:

    "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law."

    These were genius inventors and thinkers. They analyzed a given system, seen that its flawed and then came up with something new. I mean what can someone do else ? This is infact the human reasoning these days and until someone invents something better, its all we can do.

    Maybe this whole N + T think really starts to fail when it comes down to understanding people. But given science, new technologies and new discoveries, its an integral part.
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  9. #19
    DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
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    Guys, N and T don't have to "go together" like automobile parts..... they are cognitve functions. You use them(to process information). They aren't fucking legos

  10. #20
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Just as a disclaimed I didn't read the topic. Just saying N and F seem to stem from the same place just as S and T. Nothing more really.

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