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  1. #101
    . Blank's Avatar
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    Truth trees? Pies? Is a pie with truth filling tasty like cherries?

    I NEED TO KNOW THESE THINGS!
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Te = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ne = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fi = 15 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Si = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ni = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Se = 11[][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blank View Post
    Truth trees? Pies? Is a pie with truth filling tasty like cherries?

    I NEED TO KNOW THESE THINGS!
    Better!

    But if you want to know what they really taste like:

    Method of analytic tableaux - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    (It's actually a ridiculous way to navigate one's emotional life, but it's a cool way to figure out the possible outcomes of arguments that have a number of different modals involved)

  3. #103
    Senior Member Blackwater's Avatar
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    entropie: But that doesnt mean the NT is more prone to have less Ne. If you would have a more Te prone ENFP for example, this could also work as a regulating mechanism for him.
    Yes, the actual amount of Ne would and could be the same. The difference lies in the restraint or the indulgence of said Ne.

    Te will restrain Ne, but theoretically not as much as Ti because (1) Te is a tertiary function in ENFPs and (2) because what mediates self-indulgent behavior (such as talking too much (Ne) is introverted jugdment (Ti/Fi).

    Now I'm not saying its impossible for Fi to restrain Ne, just that I haven't seen this self-discipline yet, nor understood the theoretical basis of how this should be done

    jenocyde: I don't understand what you mean by "split", can you please explain?
    by split i mean percentages of the population at large. the ratio of xSFx to xSTx is roughly 50/50 whereas the ratio of xNFx to is roughly 67/33.

    blackwater: Lots of potential whims will automatically be filtered from conciousness of the NT.
    jenocyde: How are you basing this?
    Gifts Differing, for example, says that Thinkiers dismiss irrelevancies.
    Jung says so as well.

    or more philosophically, logic is impersonal (although it can certainly be construed) - logic only allows for certain conclusions and so restricts the no. of possiblie conclusions one can come to on a topic.

    by contrast, if feeling is defined as in opposition to logic and person-based (rather than object or systems-based) and pertaining to what values are true for the individual, then we have the standpoint of Protagoras:

    "The way things appear to me, in that way they exist for me; and the way things appears to you, in that way they exist for you"

    which allows for an endless number of conclusions

    Blackwater: Though Athenian200, even though you could argue that from an indoling point of view N and T do not naturally go together, don't you think that sometimes, the adverse effects of the NT combination turn out to be better than the synergic effects of the NF combination? - Here I am thinking specifically of the ENTPs vs. ENFPs: Ne-users can really be a strain, talking too much and trusting blindly in their whim and spontaneous associations. With Ti, Ne is disciplined whereas with Fi, Ne is encouraged, regardless of the actual worth of the Ne.
    jenocyde:This is completely subjective and irrelevant, imo.
    i abhor statements like these. if you're going to dismiss what I have, at least take the trouble to formulate an actual critique. thanks.

    jenocyde: N being with T must be natural, I don't believe that any of us are unnatural.
    ok, natural isn't the best word.

    let me give you another example of what I mean: 1,5% of the ethnic arab population naturally have blue eyes and red/blond hair and yet people say that it is 'natural' for arabs to have black hair and brown eyes.

    in the same way, most iNtuitives are Feelers, but ~33% of them are Thinkers.

    we could also call it 'expected' or another word all together.

    jenocyde: I think that if people are saying that N and F are "feminine traits" and S and T are "masculine traits", then NT or SF should be more balanced, not less balanced
    that was actually what I was getting at above ("the adverse effects of the NT combination turn out to be better than the synergic effects of the NF combination"), only you were too busy dismissing me out of hand to notice. hooray for you! :rolli:
    best collection of philosopher typings online

    http://www.celebritytypes.com/philosophers/

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    in the same way, most iNtuitives are Feelers, but ~33% of them are Thinkers.
    Really? Where did this figure come from?

    Just the same, isn't that a third of all Ns? A third is substantially greater than the 1.5% you referenced in your analogy. As a matter of fact, a third is just about large enough to say NT is natural, IMO.

  5. #105
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    ^ According to a study by Myers, NFs comprise about 16% of the population and NTs comprise about 11%.

    SJs are most common among the general population, followed by SPs, then NFs, then NTs.

    Apparently a majority of Ns are Fs (though not as much as 2/3), but this changes when you look at individual genders--for men, most common to rarest temperaments go SJ, SP, NT, NF...and for women, SP actually becomes more common than NF by a slight margin--they go SJ, NF, SP, NT.

    Of course these are all extrapolated from a smaller study of about 3000 people, but there's some basic data to work with, anyway.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #106
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    ^Berry interestink!

    Thank you SW.

  7. #107
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    ...and for women, SP actually becomes more common than NF by a slight margin--they go SJ, NF, SP, NT.
    Did you mean less common? If so, as per this website the order would actually be SJ, SP, NF, NT, with there being approximately 7 percent more SP women than NF women. And the same order for men.

  8. #108
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    Good gawd, it's an SF world!

  9. #109
    Senior Member Blackwater's Avatar
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    i looked it up in my books.

    the study you cite concluded that we had about 43% SFs 30% STs 16% NFs and 11% NTs.

    so maybe its just my math that is rusty but from what I remember:

    11 + 16 = 27

    11/27 = 40,7% NTs and 59,3% NFs.

    so i was wrong about the specifics but the general point i made is still valid, is it not?

    juggernaut: Just the same, isn't that a third of all Ns? A third is substantially greater than the 1.5% you referenced in your analogy. As a matter of fact, a third is just about large enough to say NT is natural, IMO.
    lol, we have a classic Te/Ti clash with me focusing on the principle and you focusing on the actual numbers from a Ti point of view, unless you want to say that something is natural or unnatural based on its frequency, the actual percentages of the two analogies do not necessarily have to match.

    simulatedworld: im not sure i buy the proposal that there should be more female NFs than SPs. i have some other studies I will look into shortlyyy
    best collection of philosopher typings online

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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    i looked it up in my books.

    the study you cite concluded that we had about 43% SFs 30% STs 16% NFs and 11% NTs.

    so maybe its just my math that is rusty but from what I remember:

    11 + 16 = 27

    11/27 = 40,7% NTs and 59,3% NFs.

    so i was wrong about the specifics but the general point i made is still valid, is it not?
    Hmmm, it just seems to be the case that the frequency NFs in the population is slighter higher, but not necessarily more "natural". A 1.5% frequency would seem to indicate something much less normal than something that occurs 41% of the time. I see this as more of a green-eyed/blue-eyed divide rather than normal/abnormal dichotomy. NTs are just a little less common, but the function pairing itself is no less natural, or normal, than NF.

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