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[NT] Reason leads to conclusions, Emotion leads to action

Xander

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How can you consider your feelings if you then process it through thinking?

To consider a feeling, one must consider the 'felt' aspect as THE key to feeling, wouldn't one? So, bringing that to the realm of thinking, negates the felt.

(again, as we talk of extremes)
Thinking and feeling are not two ends of a spectrum, never have been. A thinker will think on how they feel and so will a feeler. Don't mistake the different techniques as anything but that, different techniques.

As for the whole feeling the feeling, have you witnessed the unbridled feeling of an NT esp an NTP? It's not always a good thing to draw it out. Doing that almost finished my relationship as I had an ENFP keep asking me how I felt about my now wife and kept disregarding everything I said as thinking. That's the thing, I express through thought. If I care then I'm thinking about you and not sitting there experiencing emotions all the time. The emotion follows the thought not the other way around.
 

Qre:us

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Feeler feels pain, openly expresses that pain, probably immidiatly start cussing or blaming the friend for their inadequacy. Are visibly annoyed. Meanwhile just letting the emotions run. If their really in a bad mood they'll probably call that friend with some kind of silly ultimatum of sorts. And afterwards probably regret their actions as they start processing the situation.

Thinker feels the same pain, but almost immidiatly starts to rationalize the situation. Why was I stood up? How can I prevent it in the future? Should I remain friends or just not bother? Should I give the benefit of the doubt, or shouldn't I? They're not openly expressing their pain because they're immidiatly starting to process the situation.

The more you rationalize, the more you're trying to move away from the pain. You are moving away from the felt. You are dealing with the situation that brought about the pain (through rationalization), than you are dealing with the pain itself (anger, crying, talking about how it makes them feel, etc, the outlet).

I.e.,
To consider a feeling, one must consider the 'felt' aspect as THE key to feeling, wouldn't one? So, bringing that to the realm of thinking, negates the felt.


The advantage to the above scenario for feelers is that, situations will very likely change, but, embracing the felt/the feelings of self (doesn't have that much changeability), gives you better insight of the depth of such emotions, and with such knowledge, comes greater control for the feelers, rather than thinkers (who ignore through rationalization....as you example so succintly pointed out). Hence, they'll be put in the same 'pain'...just with a new situation, again and again...because they have yet to understand the pain itself, rather than the specific cause for the pain at any given (changing) situation.
 

Fluffywolf

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Well, I'm sorry, but crying has never fixed a problem in human history. :p Sorry, you believe I'm ignorant.

I'll leave it at saying that thinkers and feelers just act differently, have different standards of what is important. And personally I'm glad I am a thinker. I probably would have killed myself had I been a feeler by now, what would be the point in that. :p
 

Xander

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Maybe I'm just a very odd T.
Nope, just another snowflake I'm afraid.
Like I said, I don't think expressing emotions has ANYTHING to do with having emotions.
QFT however it DOES have something to do with communicating them for obvious reasons. It doesn't matter one monkey's left nut what's inside your head to another person. You have to manifest what is inside to connect.
As for showing my emotions, if someone at work is being particularly stupid and unwilling to listen I get very agitated and angry. Not because I want to be angry, but because I think that that's the only remaining thing that might make the lights in their dull brains turn on.
Don't you think that will naturally lead people to think you're basically snippy but otherwise cold?
Same for all emotions, when I think there is a need to show emotions, I will. But I won't if I don't think it's neccesary or required. I still have very strong emotions nonetheless.
But your emotions are bound to your principles. That is very T. I concur and do likewise. However this again has nothing to do with how others will define us.
 

Xander

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Well, I'm sorry, but crying has never fixed a problem in human history. :p Sorry, you believe I'm ignorant.
Me thinks your definitions are faulty. Crying never solved anything but then again neither did an idea. An idea never invented anything and caring never made anyone feel cared for. It's all in the communication and the action resulting from it, more the latter to be precise.

Crying can convey as much as a well written paragraph.
 

Qre:us

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Thinking and feeling are not two ends of a spectrum, never have been. A thinker will think on how they feel and so will a feeler. Don't mistake the different techniques as anything but that, different techniques.

In order to cleanly illustrate the point, yes, they are two ends of the spectrum...or if we stick to what we're discussing, the dichotomy T versus F. I thought that was obvious?

(again, as we talk of extremes)

As for the whole feeling the feeling, have you witnessed the unbridled feeling of an NT esp an NTP? It's not always a good thing to draw it out. Doing that almost finished my relationship as I had an ENFP keep asking me how I felt about my now wife and kept disregarding everything I said as thinking. That's the thing, I express through thought. If I care then I'm thinking about you and not sitting there experiencing emotions all the time.


Exactly, and this happens because they are unaccustomed to the meta-cognition of feeling the feeling such that when an extreme evokes it to such a degree, they cannot control feelings like a feeler could.

The emotion follows the thought not the other way around.

I think when you refer to the previous example of the 'unbridled feeling of NTP, it's very much a case of the opposite, where thoughts try to scamble to catch up with emotions, but, don't know how.....exactly BECAUSE for thinkers, emotions follow thought, so when a trigger makes emotion overwhelm a thought...it's like fish outta water.
 

Fluffywolf

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Don't you think that will naturally lead people to think you're basically snippy but otherwise cold?

Totally, but that is precisely my aim.
But your emotions are bound to your principles. That is very T. I concur and do likewise. However this again has nothing to do with how others will define us.

I'm just a bit annoyed by being called ignorant, but have come to the conclusion there is no compromise to this situation. :)
 

Xander

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In order to cleanly illustrate the point, yes, they are two ends of the spectrum...or if we stick to what we're discussing, the dichotomy T versus F. I thought that was obvious?
Sorry to be harsh but I'm trying for clarity here...

You're either wrong because you think that F is feeling as in feeling emotion or you're wrong because you're thinking that an attempt at classification is the reality. A implies B does not imply that B implies A.
 

Xander

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Totally, but that is precisely my aim.


I'm just a bit annoyed by being called ignorant, but have come to the conclusion there is no compromise to this situation. :)
Yes there is actually, soften up a little. The rest follows like water.
 

Fluffywolf

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Hey, I totally respect the feelers way of life, whatever works for them.

I only expect the same in return. :p
 

Qre:us

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Well, I'm sorry, but crying has never fixed a problem in human history. :p

Cool rationalization sat at the heels of the master whose rage over an injustice spurred him to let loose the attack dogs.

Most problems in history, and their subsequent resolution was due to a subjective perceived sleight felt by one party by the other.



Sorry, you believe I'm ignorant.

Huh? What? When? Are you leading with feeling again?

I'll leave it at saying that thinkers and feelers just act differently, have different standards of what is important. And personally I'm glad I am a thinker. I probably would have killed myself had I been a feeler by now, what would be the point in that. :p

I think thinkers and feelers process feelings in very different ways.
 

Xander

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Hey, I totally respect the feelers way of life, whatever works for them.

I only expect the same in return. :p
But that's it isn't it. To be your type and your type alone is to be only half a person... well roughly 66% to be more precise.

Some people may well not regard your emotions as prevalent but those close to you would probably welcome a more colourful you. It stops the whole effort of guessing all the time. The number of people I've driven to distraction as they try to guess whether their attempts at being nice have worked or not is staggering. Nowadays I hope I'm a little easier to estimate. Not that this has hampered my ability to be obtuse or mysterious :)
 

Qre:us

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Sorry to be harsh but I'm trying for clarity here...

You're either wrong because you think that F is feeling as in feeling emotion (A) or you're wrong because you're thinking that an attempt at classification is the reality (B). A implies B does not imply that B implies A.


Btw, assuming that ^ are A and B.

A - F is feeling as in feeling emotion
B - attempt at classificiation is a reality.

Neither are my thoughts. You inferred incorrectly.

A implies B does not imply that B implies A.

Is illogical, given above premise.
 

ptgatsby

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:thinking:

I don't actually remember F having anything to do with emotions. In regards to the OP, in MBTI-speak, it really has to do with detachment... of course, detachment can lead to less motivation to do things, but I don't see any indication that Fs are more or less motivated than Ts. Differently orientated, perhaps, but... that's about it.

I disagree with the article, however. What is being described isn't "emotion", but motivation, making it (to me, anyway) circular reasoning. I have been run over by motivated 'emotionless' people, and have seen emotional people flounder. Having said that, emotions can definitely be classed as 'reactive', however I also think the 'reactive' parts do not represent motivation, least not long term drive.
 

Fluffywolf

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Fluffywolf

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But that's it isn't it. To be your type and your type alone is to be only half a person... well roughly 66% to be more precise.

Some people may well not regard your emotions as prevalent but those close to you would probably welcome a more colourful you. It stops the whole effort of guessing all the time. The number of people I've driven to distraction as they try to guess whether their attempts at being nice have worked or not is staggering. Nowadays I hope I'm a little easier to estimate. Not that this has hampered my ability to be obtuse or mysterious :)

I don't leave much for guessing, I'm a very no nonsense guy to people close to me, they know exactly where I stand. :) (In a positive light.)
 

Qre:us

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:thinking:

I don't actually remember F having anything to do with emotions. In regards to the OP, in MBTI-speak, it really has to do with detachment... of course, detachment can lead to less motivation to do things, but I don't see any indication that Fs are more or less motivated than Ts. Differently orientated, perhaps, but... that's about it.

I disagree with the article, however. What is being described isn't "emotion", but motivation, making it (to me, anyway) circular reasoning. I have been run over by motivated 'emotionless' people, and have seen emotional people flounder. Having said that, emotions can definitely be classed as 'reactive', however I also think the 'reactive' parts do not represent motivation, least not long term drive.

Can you give a conclusive, agreed-upon definition of the difference between feeling and emotion?
 

Qre:us

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Unless you totally didn't mean what you said. :p

Or, you misinterpreted what I said.

Originally Posted by Qre:us
but, it's really just ignorance of a feeling-based problem, hence superficial 'control'.

Ignorance meaning simply, not knowing, i.e., not knowing that the problem has the potential to be feeling-based. Not you in particular, unless you think it strikes a personal chord...then, feel free to personalize it to *you*.


Originally Posted by Qre:us
rather than thinkers (who ignore through rationalization....as you example so succintly pointed out).

Ignore the feeling aspect by going first to rationalization. As your example pointed out (I had no thought to whether that example you used was you or Mary Poppins).

Again, please do not put words in my mouth such as me calling you ignorant.

Ignorance (not knowing) towards dealing with feelings as a primary disposition, does not an ignorant make. Just like ignorance (not knowing) towards dealing with situations through logic as a primary disposition, does not an ignorant make.
 

ptgatsby

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Can you give a conclusive, agreed-upon definition of the difference between feeling and emotion?

Assuming we are talking about MBTI, I'd use the five sub categories in Step II:

Empathetic
Compassionate
Accommodating
Accepting
Tender

--

Otherwise, I'd probably use some combination of a person's physiological response to an event. This tends to include the normal definition of feeling (ie: you "feel" something is wrong tends to involve physiological changes).

The key thing here is that F, as in MBTI F, does not measure the 2nd definition well, if at all.
 

Fluffywolf

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Ignorance meaning simply, not knowing, i.e., not knowing that the problem has the potential to be feeling-based. Not you in particular, unless you think it strikes a personal chord...then, feel free to personalize it to *you*.

Whereas I believe that there is no such think as a feeling-based or thinking based situation. Every situation is of the same making, feelers just make it feeling-based, thinkers make it thinking based.

I do not find either wrong, although I'm ofcourse biased towards thinking myself for obvious reasons.

Ignore the feeling aspect by going first to rationalization. As your example pointed out (I had no thought to whether that example you used was you or Mary Poppins).

Again, please do not put words in my mouth such as me calling you ignorant.

Ignorance towards dealing with feelings as a primary disposition, does not an ignorant make. Just like ignorance towards dealing with situations through logic as a primary disposition, does not an ignorant make.

I did say pretty clearly we do not ignore the feeling aspect. We just deal differently with it. (Although maybe I should say I, instead of we, here.)

And that is why I perceived your opinion of me to be ignorant to such situations. Which is exactly what ignorant makes. I highly disagree wit your stance towards what T is. And just find it unfortunate you have such a low value of it.

:|
 
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