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[NT] Reason leads to conclusions, Emotion leads to action

thisGuy

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Rational thinking and emotion: one without the other is a dangerous thing

THERE'S a famous case in neuroscience of a man whose brain was damaged in a way that stopped him feeling emotions. He was a living example of homo economicus - the rational calculator of what course of action would suit him best.

And, in fact, he was very good at carefully itemising and weighing the pros and cons of every choice.

There was just one problem: he could never make up his mind. He would just go on weighing the pros and cons.


Emotion without reason gives you talkback radio. Reason without emotion gives you the worst excesses of economic rationalism.

mental attitude - for economists is to say to the community: tell us your material objectives and we'll tell you the best way to achieve them at the minimum cost in resources, given your desired level of quality.

The one thing economists should never do is tell the community what its objectives should be. This is because objectives - ends - are the province of emotion. We want what we want

The classic example of rationalists persuading governments to give up ends because they would make such wonderful means is the deregulation of shopping hours and dismantling of penalty payments for work at unsociable hours.

There is no denying that moving the economy closer to a 24-hour, seven-days-a-week operation will make it more efficient in producing material goods and services.

But, equally, you have to be emotionally crippled to fail to see that abolishing the weekend advances our material ends at the expense of social ends, such as a rich emotional life with family and friends. Great idea.

whadyathink


edit: screw the perspective this article is written from...does the article hold any merit to you?
 

Xander

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Accurate but phrased to sell emotion to rational thinkers and make the motivators feel better when surrounded by the thinkers.
 

Athenian200

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I think I sound more like that famous case than I want to admit. :blushing:

I spend a lot of time sitting around thinking about what I want to do, weighing pros and cons, but nothing ever motivates me to act on any of it. In fact I always seem to minimize action as much as possible.

I thought I had more developed emotions than this...

Although, maybe the article is partially wrong. It might only be talking about emotions that originate from internal motivation, rather than cues from other people. If so, that would make sense.
 

thisGuy

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Accurate but phrased to sell emotion to rational thinkers and make the motivators feel better when surrounded by the thinkers.

most people here being T, specifically NT, everyone here can see that...so screw the obvious...does the article hold any merit to you?
 

thisGuy

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I think I sound more like that famous case than I want to admit. :blushing:

I spend a lot of time sitting around thinking about what I want to do, weighing pros and cons, but nothing ever motivates me to act on any of it. In fact I always seem to minimize action as much as possible.

I thought I had more developed emotions than this...

Although, maybe the article is partially wrong. It might only be talking about emotions that originate from internal motivation, rather than cues from other people.

for me it makes perfect sense, specially where relationships with other NTs are concerned...ideas are seeping out of (or into) every hole...but not going into action unless i get pushed to the point where i HAVE to make a decision and, in retrospect, it ends up favoring my feelings
 

Xander

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most people here being T, specifically NT, everyone here can see that...so screw the obvious...does the article hold any merit to you?
Sorry but I AM an NT. That was it's merit! Anything else would have been extrapolation and as such would be more a measure of my own merits rather than the text itself.

Aside from that, no it really doesn't impact on me so much. It's too obvious.
 

thisGuy

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crazy...i never connected the dots till i read the article
 

Qre:us

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I didn't click on the link, just read the snippets you quoted in the OP.

My first reaction:

Just like reason allows for the objective weighing of a situation, its pros and cons, emotion allows for the subjective weighing of an investment in the situation, its pros and cons.

Meaning, we can get to a final conclusion through reason, but the motivation, the subjective analysis of WHY to INVEST** in this conclusion, will be tied to the emotion. Which would lead to action.


** E.g., is it worth it to me to invest the time? Am I excited following this action through? Am I bored with the prospect of taking the action? etc, etc...

So, yeah, I can see it.
 

Fluffywolf

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Accurate but phrased to sell emotion to rational thinkers and make the motivators feel better when surrounded by the thinkers.

Seriously though, why do people believe rational thinkers are emotionless. :p
 

Athenian200

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Seriously though, why do people believe rational thinkers are emotionless. :p

Because according to MBTI, Thinking and Feeling are opposites that push each other away. They're both judgment functions that would conflict with each other. You know, like when you line up two magnets with the same pole and they repel each other.

That's pretty much the basis of why rational thinkers are thought to be less emotional than idealistic feelers. Along with the idea of bankers being heartless bean counters, and the idea that generous, empathetic, or compliant people have more feelings, etc. Much of this theory is influenced by popular interpretations of reality, and mirrors a kind of mythological consciousness that people tend towards.
 

Fluffywolf

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But we have exactly the same emotions and the same amount of those emotions (I think), we just deal with them differently. :p

(Or rather said, we deal with them were Feelers do not, probably. :p)
 

Athenian200

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But we have exactly the same emotions and the same amount of those emotions (I think), we just deal with them differently. :p

(Or rather said, we deal with them were Feelers do not, probably. :p)

You do? Are you sure you're a T?

Perhaps you should try asking some NTs that question before assuming such things. Many of them seem to insist that they don't have the same emotions in the same amounts, though they do have some weakened/diluted ones.
 

Fluffywolf

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I'm 100% positive I am an INTP and I'm 100% positive I have very strong feelings. I just have a very strong control over my feelings. I kind off assumed it's the same for every NT.
 

Qre:us

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(Or rather said, we deal with them were Feelers do not, probably. :p)

If we talk of extremes: Opposite, Feelers DEAL with their feelings, while thinkers do not.

This may look like 'control'....but, it's really just ignorance of a feeling-based problem, hence superficial 'control'.
 

Fluffywolf

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If we talk of extremes: Opposite, Feelers DEAL with their feelings, while thinkers do not.

This may look like 'control'....but, it's really just ignorance of a feeling-based problem, hence superficial 'control'.

It's obviously a biased concept.

Thinkers: We feel, consider our feelings, process them through our thinking state and assume the most logical course of action. To us, that is control.

Feelers feel and let their actions be influenced directly by their emotions. To them that is control.

I still think both parties have, or can have, the same amount of emotions. And the same strength of emotions.

So,

it's really just ignorance of a feeling-based problem

is an arguement I am unable to put any worth or value into.
 

Qre:us

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It's obviously a biased concept.

Thinkers: We feel, consider our feelings, process them through our thinking state and assume the most logical course of action. To us, that is control.

How can you consider your feelings if you then process it through thinking?

To consider a feeling, one must consider the 'felt' aspect as THE key to feeling, wouldn't one? So, bringing that to the realm of thinking, negates the felt.

(again, as we talk of extremes)
 

Fluffywolf

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How can you consider your feelings if you then process it through thinking?

To consider a feeling, one must consider the 'felt' aspect as THE key to feeling, wouldn't one? So, bringing that to the realm of thinking, negates the felt.

(again, as we talk of extremes)

Ehh..

A very crude and generic example. Try not to take it too literal.

Person gets stood up by a friend.

Feeler feels pain, openly expresses that pain, probably immidiatly start cussing or blaming the friend for their inadequacy. Are visibly annoyed. Meanwhile just letting the emotions run. If their really in a bad mood they'll probably call that friend with some kind of silly ultimatum of sorts. And afterwards probably regret their actions as they start processing the situation.

Thinker feels the same pain, but almost immidiatly starts to rationalize the situation. Why was I stood up? How can I prevent it in the future? Should I remain friends or just not bother? Should I give the benefit of the doubt, or shouldn't I? They're not openly expressing their pain because they're immidiatly starting to process the situation.

In both situations, both feeler and thinker felt the exact same emotion. A third person however would not be able to perceive that, as both do seem to react differently.

I agree, it's a pretty bad and extreme example, but that is at this moment anyhow, my stance towards the difference between F and T. It has nothing to do with having a certain amount of emotions, but with how we act on our emotions. And so far I have not found any clues to suggest otherwise.
 

Athenian200

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Ehh..

A very crude and generic example. Try not to take it too literal.

Person gets stood up by a friend.

Feeler feels pain, openly expresses that pain, probably immidiatly start cussing or blaming the friend for their inadequacy. Are visibly annoyed. Meanwhile just letting the emotions run. If their really in a bad mood they'll probably call that friend with some kind of silly ultimatum of sorts. And afterwards probably regret their actions as they start processing the situation.

Thinker feels the same pain, but almost immidiatly starts to rationalize the situation. Why was I stood up? How can I prevent it in the future? Should I remain friends or just not bother? Should I give the benefit of the doubt, or shouldn't I? They're not openly expressing their pain because they're immidiatly starting to process the situation.

In both situations, both feeler and thinker felt the exact same emotion. A third person however would not be able to perceive that, as both do seem to react differently.

I agree, it's a pretty bad and extreme example, but that is at this moment anyhow, my stance towards the difference between F and T. It has nothing to do with emotions, but with how we act on our emotions. And so far I have not found any clues to suggest otherwise.

I wouldn't act anything like the F in your example, because I would be more concerned with how that behavior would affect people's perception of me, and the potential consequences of that behavior. I wouldn't even be that upset about it, honestly... I'd just be mildly annoyed that things didn't go as planned, and that by showing up I'd wasted energy and attention I could have spent doing something else. Out of curiosity, why is the situation so upsetting that someone would curse? I don't see it.

If anything, I would have thought Ts had less control of their emotions due to being less aware of them, and would thus act more like the F in your example when they were overwhelmed by their emotions.
 

Xander

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Seriously though, why do people believe rational thinkers are emotionless. :p
Name the last time you emoted and actually made a scene of one kind or another. I'd bet those instances are separated by quite a margin.

People often think I'm fairly cool and unemotional, except those that know me well and can read small print. You should have seen the jaws hit the floor at my wedding when I pretty much hugged EVERYONE. I think even my father was impressed by how much I can switch it on when I'm motivated to do so. Mind you that's the thing isn't it. Spending all that time analysing often leaves too little time to actually show the results.
 

Fluffywolf

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Maybe I'm just a very odd T.

Name the last time you emoted and actually made a scene of one kind or another. I'd bet those instances are separated by quite a margin.

Like I said, I don't think expressing emotions has ANYTHING to do with having emotions.

As for showing my emotions, if someone at work is being particularly stupid and unwilling to listen I get very agitated and angry. Not because I want to be angry, but because I think that that's the only remaining thing that might make the lights in their dull brains turn on.

Same for all emotions, when I think there is a need to show emotions, I will. But I won't if I don't think it's neccesary or required. I still have very strong emotions nonetheless.
 
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