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[ENTP] The oddest ENTP women ever...

sculpting

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I work with a female chemical engineer-she is about 30, PhD in chemical engineering from a top engineering school here in the US. Did her undergrad here as well at the same school. She grew up till college in Taiwan. She was raised with the expectation she would take over the family business which is chemical engineering in Taiwan.

The problem is that she is one of the strangest entp women I have ever seen. She is an ENTP, although it took me months to really be certain of this and I am still somewhat confused. I thought ESTP for a long time but her thesis is exceedingly abstract and her eyes are much more entp than estp, and she actually can talk science once focused-unlike my estp collegues.

She is outgoing, energetic, very clever, and once focused comes across as a typical entp especially when interacting with other Thinker women.

However in the majority of her interactions she overplays her femininity to the point of ridiculousness. She is infantile by definition. She has been with my company for three years as a principal investigator, but would come to work dressed in miniskirts, halter tops and with her bathing suit showing through her tank top. The majority of men she worked with no longer wanted to interact with her as they were very uncomfortable with all of the "extras" showing.

She also will try and be excessively flirty, even with other women, making coy eye movements, little giggles and change her entire posture to appear less threatening. She tries to show off her boobs to me even. She ACTS like an idiot, and to make her stop i will say "hey, dude, you gotta put on your game face" and she settles down to being a normal entp again. She plays up her own pretend stupidity to get others to help her do things.

When things go sour she likes to fall back on the "he's being mean to me" excuse. She also has gotten tangled into two recent messes with an entp male coworker and a customer in which she got propositioned sexually, but just can't understand why, and then later said they were mean to her because she declined thier advances.

1) Have you EVER seen an entp women like this? (I never have)
2) Could there be cultural effects at play here that influence here her decision to become infantile as some sort of defense mechanism?
 

EcK

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she sounds fun (biased entp here)




off to cardio, i might actually write a real answer later (maybee)
 

Mort Belfry

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her eyes are much more entp than estp

What do ENTP eyes look like?

Anything like this?
elaine-vengen.jpg
 

Kasper

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If she's dumbing herself down to be accepted it sounds influenced by culture to me, at the least background and then mixed with self esteem issues.
 

CzeCze

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I have a question for you - is she cute? I mean that seriously. If you saw her outside of work, would you think she was a professional or a cute girl hanging out at the mall?

It might be influenced by culture - but I wouldn't say this is common in east asia or even Taiwan. I've known my fair share of Taiwanese/Chinese female exchange students, particularly in the sciences, and they came to get down in the hood - as in that hood you mix chemicals and do experiments in (it's some kinda science nerd lab jockey joke, I'm sure you get it).

Also, unlike in the states, it's very accepted in east asia for women to excel in math and sciences and still retain their femininity - in fact, being smart, being at the top of your class - does nothing to diminish your femininity or desirability. In fact, being school smart and having a quality higher education is a desired trait in women and women generally have no hang-ups about it.

So I wouldn't say she is trying to over compensate for her smarts.

Then again, acting overly feminine and such - it's not uncommon in east asian culture. However, it is pretty inappropriate how she is dressing, as it's immodest.

I think if it's related to upbringing, it would be more related to her family. Perhaps she was doted upon or this behavior was rewarded in the past. Or acting like this was the only way she could get what she wanted.

I would say if she is considered very attractive by most people, that it was just easier this way and people didn't take her intelligence seriously.

Since she's 30, even by her cultural standards she only has a few years left where she can get away with this kind of behavior. If I'm guessing correctly how she's acting - the almost infantile, cutesy, making pouty faces, acting exuberant when she gets her way - that's acceptable in girls.
 

entropie

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If she made her PhD at the age of 30 already, she probably nowadays is in grave need to get laid :D.
 

CzeCze

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Hey, random thought - maybe she's rebelling against all the responsibility and expectation put on her. She just wanted to have a normal life as a young woman - go to the mall, shop, date around, be goofy. But no, she had to come to the states to study freakin chemical engineering so she could become CEO of her family business at 35 and die alone (okay, I'm reaching here, work with me). She she has a little bit of a peter pan(ella?) syndrome.

Or being taken out of her social context and straight into the grind in america, she still acts and dresses like she did at 18 back in Taiwan. Which has the same outcome as Peter Pan(ella)ism.

Either that, or she really is just clueless. It's possible her family, her crew back home dresses and act like that and it's totally fine. Taiwanese/Chinese fashion can be a little "extra".

If it's a problem, is there any way HR can talk to her without threat of a lawsuit?
 

sculpting

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What do ENTP eyes look like?

Anything like this?

Mort those would be hyperthyroid eyes, not ENTP eyes. This is totally my BS, but it seems entps do a lot more visual retreival of info (NPL) lots of up left and up right glances. The estps I have been watching almost never do this-they do lots of side to side glancing which is supposed to match with verbal retreival. hell I dont know...

I have a question for you - is she cute? I mean that seriously. If you saw her outside of work, would you think she was a professional or a cute girl hanging out at the mall?

Since she's 30, even by her cultural standards she only has a few years left where she can get away with this kind of behavior. If I'm guessing correctly how she's acting - the almost infantile, cutesy, making pouty faces, acting exuberant when she gets her way - that's acceptable in girls.

She's fucking hot as hell. I mean I dont dig chicks, but she is totally sexy-cutsy. That's why it is so problematic. She has a very sexy body and a cute face too.

If she made her PhD at the age of 30 already, she probably nowadays is in grave need to get laid :D.

Nope, she has a boyfriend. Actually finished her pHD at 28.

Hey, random thought - maybe she's rebelling against all the responsibility and expectation put on her. She just wanted to have a normal life as a young woman - go to the mall, shop, date around, be goofy. But no, she had to come to the states to study freakin chemical engineering so she could become CEO of her family business at 35 and die alone (okay, I'm reaching here, work with me). She she has a little bit of a peter pan(ella?) syndrome.

Or being taken out of her social context and straight into the grind in america, she still acts and dresses like she did at 18 back in Taiwan. Which has the same outcome as Peter Pan(ella)ism.

Either that, or she really is just clueless. It's possible her family, her crew back home dresses and act like that and it's totally fine. Taiwanese/Chinese fashion can be a little "extra".

If it's a problem, is there any way HR can talk to her without threat of a lawsuit?

Clueless yes. I have considered the above. She has moved out of the lab and into marketing as she didnt want to stay at the bench, but as she stands she is useless to interact with my customers. They are still scientists so her behavior is still odd and flippant by thier standards.

Turns out nobody at my company has ever honestly talked with her about this. HR is useless unless its time to get fired.

The taiwanese twist might be part of the issue-that's what I am hunting at. My thoughts much follow yours here.

I would like to give her some honest feedback-already have with regards to her claims about the entp coworker. But now that customers are involved things are very sticky.
 

CzeCze

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She's fucking hot as hell. I mean I dont dig chicks, but she is totally sexy-cutsy. That's why it is so problematic. She has a very sexy body and a cute face too.

Okay, now that gives me more to work with.

I kinda thought as much...

As I said before, being smart and successful in east asia doesn't diminish or even affect your sex appeal or femininity quota - if you are already cute/hot to begin with. Regardless of her credentials and schooling she is going to act and dress in the way that "young cute women" are expected to act and dress like.

Though - given that cultural context, it's still kinda strange that she's acting so clueless in the workplace. Then again, as an NP, cluelessness, especially about what is considered "appropriate attire" can be expected.

I'm interested to see how this turns out!
 
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Oberon

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She sounds like a bundle of conflicting cultural and emotional imperatives. If her attention is called to the problem, she will eventually work it out.
 

EcK

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i just.. don't really grasp the issue.
If researchers are stuck up it's more of a negative for them than for her.

entps are playful, and attractive women know they are and that it gives them a free pass for lots of things: mix it together and that's what you get.

It's just, how life works.
I'm rather worried about how prudish or borderline perverted the guys can be if they can't work near a woman who's not acting like it's the 18th century. East Asian societies don't have all the judeo christian cultural taboos 'we' have around the human body.
Let's not confuse corporate culture and religiously derived irrational taboos.

Does she do PR?


Is her productivity an issue?


edit: I went past the 3 first line of the OP and yeah, she's apparently overdoing it, but I still think there's something wrong with the coworkers to begin with. Why can't they just tell her what's the issue rather than avoid. Entps don't understand avoidance. If somebody doesn't like a behavior i exibit and doesn't just say it (has to be backed up by some rational that's something more than 'me and my feelings are important' )



solution:
You could convince her by talking about social dynamics and how some things she does don't have long term efficiency.
That'd work for me.
 

sculpting

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i just.. don't really grasp the issue.
If researchers are stuck up it's more of a negative for them than for her.

entps are playful, and attractive women know they are and that it gives them a free pass for lots of things: mix it together and that's what you get.

It's just, how life works.
I'm rather worried about how prudish or borderline perverted the guys can be if they can't work near a woman who's not acting like it's the 18th century. East Asian societies don't have all the judeo christian cultural taboos 'we' have around the human body.
Let's not confuse corporate culture and religiously derived irrational taboos.

Does she do PR?


Is her productivity an issue?

She is extensively in PR in her new role. She also interacts with many external scientists-who comment on how flippant she is. They underestimate her intelligence then are not as interested in working with her-thus us-and thus it can effect our business. It appears one of the first things an NT will evaluate is the intellectual credibility of an individual you are about to engage with. Acting childish or overtly sexual seems to be diminishing her credibility, thus diminishing her ability to "play ball".

They dont take her seriously.

My internal guys, who have commented on her attire for years, are an awesome group of scientists and engineers, who typically are pretty good about not giving girls any crap. I am all for womens rights but realistically men are highly visual. It distracts from the intellectual message/project/mission when the "goods" are so on display that it is hard not to notice. and again it diminishes her credibility as they stop taking her intellectual ability seriously.

She is actually pretty smart.
 

EcK

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I edited my post, I didn't read the whole op, 'm sorry :blush:
She is actually pretty smart.
yeah obviously. It takes a smart person to act really stupid. It's a thing.
 

sculpting

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crap! I just saw the second half edit :) . I think you are correct-nobody has been straightforward about the issue so she isnt really aware of the effect it is having.

I wanted to try and tease out what was cultural vs what is behavioral before considering anything else.
 

EcK

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Ur in my 'cool intps' list. And It is a short list.

Just don't you start braging about it : P

back to the main story.
As long as you use facts and talk about dynamics without saying it's 'her fault' vs the innocent world it should go just fine. Joke about it with her, like after i'm done upmanshiping people and have a vodka. A really rational entp shouldn't be emotionaly attached to a type of behavior, they're just masks we toy with.
Just, try not to take away her toys and leave her with nothing.
I could probably come up with a new approach\toy but I don't know the situation well enough.
and i'm sure u can do that with ur eyes closed at breakfast while juggling with toasts.

So, have fun.
 

jenocyde

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She is extensively in PR in her new role. She also interacts with many external scientists-who comment on how flippant she is. They underestimate her intelligence then are not as interested in working with her-thus us-and thus it can effect our business. It appears one of the first things an NT will evaluate is the intellectual credibility of an individual you are about to engage with. Acting childish or overtly sexual seems to be diminishing her credibility, thus diminishing her ability to "play ball".

They dont take her seriously.

My internal guys, who have commented on her attire for years, are an awesome group of scientists and engineers, who typically are pretty good about not giving girls any crap. I am all for womens rights but realistically men are highly visual. It distracts from the intellectual message/project/mission when the "goods" are so on display that it is hard not to notice. and again it diminishes her credibility as they stop taking her intellectual ability seriously.

She is actually pretty smart.

I went through a few phases in my life like this, though not to this extreme. It's self esteem at play (or at war).

Maybe her boyfriend is threatened by her intelligence so she tried to make it more palatable for him, but it spills over to the rest of her life?

There was a point in my life when I wasn't being taken seriously. I was very young in a highly technical field and I was the boss. So at one point, I intentionally "uglified" myself. This could be the same thing in reverse?

As far as the clothes thing, it's funny, I always buy clothes that I think are adorable but I really truly am clueless. It wasn't until I looked at photographs at a particular party that I saw what everyone else saw. A simple V-neck sweater can look really trashy on me. I guess, in denying my sexuality for so long, I forgot I had it, so I thought I could wear whatever I wanted. (but you say she purposely shows her body off?) I don't know, there are definitely times when I am over the top inappropriate and don't realize it until my sister pulls me aside...

And everyone thinks I flirt with them, my way of talking is what most people consider flirting. I still don't get that part because I feel very deliberate and obvious when I choose to flirt.
 

briochick

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I don't know exactly how it is in taiwan but I can tell you a few things about women in Korea:

~They're allowed to be smart, top of their class, doctors, but they're still expected to project an air of excessive femininity, girlish bubblyness, social ignorance, and frailty.
~Talking about serious things, or playing sports socially stigmatizes you if you're a woman
~Because of the limited Western media that they get many (anyone who hasn't spent at least six months in a western country) tends to think that American women live like those on Nip/Tuck, Gossip Girls, Desperate Housewives, and Sex In The City and the like, so it would not be too off to assume that coming to a western country a new asian would try and dress according to the way the tv had taught them westerners dress.
They're expected to duck their heads, cover their mouths, and act coy with everyone.

Even if she has been there for a while I would suggest someone sit down with her and gently and clearly talk with her about the problem, because it could very well be cultural.
 

thisGuy

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you always base your N/S conclusions on how abstract people's work is. i think you it'd prolly be more accurate to focus on their everyday communication rather than looking at their work. its her thesis, its supposed to be abstract to a certain degree, shes gonna approach it from a certain angle. in a more relaxed environment (everyday work? but maybe not in her case) shes probably more herself than anything else

i say this because im in engineering and im surrounded by a lot of S-types who, i think, you would type as N

http://www.keirsey.com/handler.aspx?s=keirsey&f=fourtemps&tab=1&c=overview
First, people naturally think and talk about what they are interested in, and if you listen carefully to people's conversations, you find two broad but distinct areas of subject matter.

Some people talk primarily about the external, concrete world of everyday reality: facts and figures, work and play, home and family, news, sports and weather -- all the who-what-when-where-and how much's of life.

Other people talk primarily about the internal, abstract world of ideas: theories and conjectures, dreams and philosophies, beliefs and fantasies --all the why's, if's, and what-might-be's of life.

At times, of course, everyone addresses both sorts of topics, but in their daily lives, and for the most part, Concrete people talk about reality, while Abstract people talk about ideas.
 

Qre:us

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She is outgoing, energetic, very clever, and once focused comes across as a typical entp especially when interacting with other Thinker women.

Say we assume, she is, in fact, ENTP.

However in the majority of her interactions she overplays her femininity to the point of ridiculousness. She is infantile by definition. She has been with my company for three years as a principal investigator, but would come to work dressed in miniskirts, halter tops and with her bathing suit showing through her tank top. The majority of men she worked with no longer wanted to interact with her as they were very uncomfortable with all of the "extras" showing.

She also will try and be excessively flirty, even with other women, making coy eye movements, little giggles and change her entire posture to appear less threatening. She tries to show off her boobs to me even. She ACTS like an idiot, and to make her stop i will say "hey, dude, you gotta put on your game face" and she settles down to being a normal entp again. She plays up her own pretend stupidity to get others to help her do things.

She is using her femininity to 'get ahead' (or, she thinks she is) because it's a 'man's world' where she works.

And, add to that,
2) Could there be cultural effects at play here that influence here her decision to become infantile as some sort of defense mechanism?

And, you got a confused woman trying to compete in a 'man's world' through her cultural lens (which, in application, isn't quite translating) because I'm sure in her country, she may have come up against resistance being "just" an intelligent woman. Cultural limbo....and she's tackling it the best she knows how.

Unless....told otherwise.

If you are close enough to her, maybe, like you say, when she boob-flashes you to cut that out, tell her, that in general, to cut it out (not just with you), and if she's true ENTP, if you can give justification of how it hurts more than helps (e.g., losing customers, professionalism, etc)....she would pick up on the logic and try an alternate method.

Or, if she really gets the ins-and-outs of the game, and is predisposed to having a sly skew to her personality, she'll figure out a balance of how to still work her femininity to her advantage, in a more subtle way.

When things go sour she likes to fall back on the "he's being mean to me" excuse. She also has gotten tangled into two recent messes with an entp male coworker and a customer in which she got propositioned sexually, but just can't understand why, and then later said they were mean to her because she declined thier advances.

A behaviour is reinforced by the consequence. If she cannot see that her behaviour is a direct line to the above consequence (for whatever skewness her cultural lens affords her)...then, the behaviour will continue. But, if she is pointed out that those behaviours of her directly leads to those negative consequences, then, there's hope.

Being infantile and getting others to do stuff for her, only reinforces her behaviour as the consequence is a positive. She needs to see clearly the negatives of the consequences, or, at least, have it overshadow whatever perceived positives she sees.

Or....she may be doing the rebellion thing ENTPs are known for, and being out of her native country, where I'm sure there were plenty of expectations to 'be a persona' (esp. if she is in line to take over a family business). Then, coming to the USA might, to her, feel like breaking out of the prison chains, and having carte blanche over her display of sexuality (which she might not have been able to indulge in in her native country). She's going a bit buck wild with the freedom? And, seeing its merit be worth MORE than any 'indirect' (to her) consequences that come out of it.
 
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