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  1. #11
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    i just.. don't really grasp the issue.
    If researchers are stuck up it's more of a negative for them than for her.

    entps are playful, and attractive women know they are and that it gives them a free pass for lots of things: mix it together and that's what you get.

    It's just, how life works.
    I'm rather worried about how prudish or borderline perverted the guys can be if they can't work near a woman who's not acting like it's the 18th century. East Asian societies don't have all the judeo christian cultural taboos 'we' have around the human body.
    Let's not confuse corporate culture and religiously derived irrational taboos.

    Does she do PR?


    Is her productivity an issue?


    edit: I went past the 3 first line of the OP and yeah, she's apparently overdoing it, but I still think there's something wrong with the coworkers to begin with. Why can't they just tell her what's the issue rather than avoid. Entps don't understand avoidance. If somebody doesn't like a behavior i exibit and doesn't just say it (has to be backed up by some rational that's something more than 'me and my feelings are important' )



    solution:
    You could convince her by talking about social dynamics and how some things she does don't have long term efficiency.
    That'd work for me.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  2. #12
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    i just.. don't really grasp the issue.
    If researchers are stuck up it's more of a negative for them than for her.

    entps are playful, and attractive women know they are and that it gives them a free pass for lots of things: mix it together and that's what you get.

    It's just, how life works.
    I'm rather worried about how prudish or borderline perverted the guys can be if they can't work near a woman who's not acting like it's the 18th century. East Asian societies don't have all the judeo christian cultural taboos 'we' have around the human body.
    Let's not confuse corporate culture and religiously derived irrational taboos.

    Does she do PR?


    Is her productivity an issue?
    She is extensively in PR in her new role. She also interacts with many external scientists-who comment on how flippant she is. They underestimate her intelligence then are not as interested in working with her-thus us-and thus it can effect our business. It appears one of the first things an NT will evaluate is the intellectual credibility of an individual you are about to engage with. Acting childish or overtly sexual seems to be diminishing her credibility, thus diminishing her ability to "play ball".

    They dont take her seriously.

    My internal guys, who have commented on her attire for years, are an awesome group of scientists and engineers, who typically are pretty good about not giving girls any crap. I am all for womens rights but realistically men are highly visual. It distracts from the intellectual message/project/mission when the "goods" are so on display that it is hard not to notice. and again it diminishes her credibility as they stop taking her intellectual ability seriously.

    She is actually pretty smart.

  3. #13
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    I edited my post, I didn't read the whole op, 'm sorry
    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post

    She is actually pretty smart.
    yeah obviously. It takes a smart person to act really stupid. It's a thing.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  4. #14
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    crap! I just saw the second half edit . I think you are correct-nobody has been straightforward about the issue so she isnt really aware of the effect it is having.

    I wanted to try and tease out what was cultural vs what is behavioral before considering anything else.

  5. #15
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    I edited my post, I didn't read the whole op, 'm sorry

    yeah obviously. It takes a smart person to act really stupid. It's a thing.
    does that mean I am a genius??

  6. #16
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Ur in my 'cool intps' list. And It is a short list.

    Just don't you start braging about it : P

    back to the main story.
    As long as you use facts and talk about dynamics without saying it's 'her fault' vs the innocent world it should go just fine. Joke about it with her, like after i'm done upmanshiping people and have a vodka. A really rational entp shouldn't be emotionaly attached to a type of behavior, they're just masks we toy with.
    Just, try not to take away her toys and leave her with nothing.
    I could probably come up with a new approach\toy but I don't know the situation well enough.
    and i'm sure u can do that with ur eyes closed at breakfast while juggling with toasts.

    So, have fun.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  7. #17
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    She is extensively in PR in her new role. She also interacts with many external scientists-who comment on how flippant she is. They underestimate her intelligence then are not as interested in working with her-thus us-and thus it can effect our business. It appears one of the first things an NT will evaluate is the intellectual credibility of an individual you are about to engage with. Acting childish or overtly sexual seems to be diminishing her credibility, thus diminishing her ability to "play ball".

    They dont take her seriously.

    My internal guys, who have commented on her attire for years, are an awesome group of scientists and engineers, who typically are pretty good about not giving girls any crap. I am all for womens rights but realistically men are highly visual. It distracts from the intellectual message/project/mission when the "goods" are so on display that it is hard not to notice. and again it diminishes her credibility as they stop taking her intellectual ability seriously.

    She is actually pretty smart.
    I went through a few phases in my life like this, though not to this extreme. It's self esteem at play (or at war).

    Maybe her boyfriend is threatened by her intelligence so she tried to make it more palatable for him, but it spills over to the rest of her life?

    There was a point in my life when I wasn't being taken seriously. I was very young in a highly technical field and I was the boss. So at one point, I intentionally "uglified" myself. This could be the same thing in reverse?

    As far as the clothes thing, it's funny, I always buy clothes that I think are adorable but I really truly am clueless. It wasn't until I looked at photographs at a particular party that I saw what everyone else saw. A simple V-neck sweater can look really trashy on me. I guess, in denying my sexuality for so long, I forgot I had it, so I thought I could wear whatever I wanted. (but you say she purposely shows her body off?) I don't know, there are definitely times when I am over the top inappropriate and don't realize it until my sister pulls me aside...

    And everyone thinks I flirt with them, my way of talking is what most people consider flirting. I still don't get that part because I feel very deliberate and obvious when I choose to flirt.

  8. #18
    half-nut member briochick's Avatar
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    I don't know exactly how it is in taiwan but I can tell you a few things about women in Korea:

    ~They're allowed to be smart, top of their class, doctors, but they're still expected to project an air of excessive femininity, girlish bubblyness, social ignorance, and frailty.
    ~Talking about serious things, or playing sports socially stigmatizes you if you're a woman
    ~Because of the limited Western media that they get many (anyone who hasn't spent at least six months in a western country) tends to think that American women live like those on Nip/Tuck, Gossip Girls, Desperate Housewives, and Sex In The City and the like, so it would not be too off to assume that coming to a western country a new asian would try and dress according to the way the tv had taught them westerners dress.
    They're expected to duck their heads, cover their mouths, and act coy with everyone.

    Even if she has been there for a while I would suggest someone sit down with her and gently and clearly talk with her about the problem, because it could very well be cultural.
    -Brio

    "I have never in my life envied a human being who led an easy life; I have envied a great many people who led difficult lives and led them well."
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  9. #19
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    you always base your N/S conclusions on how abstract people's work is. i think you it'd prolly be more accurate to focus on their everyday communication rather than looking at their work. its her thesis, its supposed to be abstract to a certain degree, shes gonna approach it from a certain angle. in a more relaxed environment (everyday work? but maybe not in her case) shes probably more herself than anything else

    i say this because im in engineering and im surrounded by a lot of S-types who, i think, you would type as N

    http://www.keirsey.com/handler.aspx?...b=1&c=overview
    First, people naturally think and talk about what they are interested in, and if you listen carefully to people's conversations, you find two broad but distinct areas of subject matter.

    Some people talk primarily about the external, concrete world of everyday reality: facts and figures, work and play, home and family, news, sports and weather -- all the who-what-when-where-and how much's of life.

    Other people talk primarily about the internal, abstract world of ideas: theories and conjectures, dreams and philosophies, beliefs and fantasies --all the why's, if's, and what-might-be's of life.

    At times, of course, everyone addresses both sorts of topics, but in their daily lives, and for the most part, Concrete people talk about reality, while Abstract people talk about ideas.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post

    She is outgoing, energetic, very clever, and once focused comes across as a typical entp especially when interacting with other Thinker women.
    Say we assume, she is, in fact, ENTP.

    However in the majority of her interactions she overplays her femininity to the point of ridiculousness. She is infantile by definition. She has been with my company for three years as a principal investigator, but would come to work dressed in miniskirts, halter tops and with her bathing suit showing through her tank top. The majority of men she worked with no longer wanted to interact with her as they were very uncomfortable with all of the "extras" showing.

    She also will try and be excessively flirty, even with other women, making coy eye movements, little giggles and change her entire posture to appear less threatening. She tries to show off her boobs to me even. She ACTS like an idiot, and to make her stop i will say "hey, dude, you gotta put on your game face" and she settles down to being a normal entp again. She plays up her own pretend stupidity to get others to help her do things.
    She is using her femininity to 'get ahead' (or, she thinks she is) because it's a 'man's world' where she works.

    And, add to that,
    2) Could there be cultural effects at play here that influence here her decision to become infantile as some sort of defense mechanism?
    And, you got a confused woman trying to compete in a 'man's world' through her cultural lens (which, in application, isn't quite translating) because I'm sure in her country, she may have come up against resistance being "just" an intelligent woman. Cultural limbo....and she's tackling it the best she knows how.

    Unless....told otherwise.

    If you are close enough to her, maybe, like you say, when she boob-flashes you to cut that out, tell her, that in general, to cut it out (not just with you), and if she's true ENTP, if you can give justification of how it hurts more than helps (e.g., losing customers, professionalism, etc)....she would pick up on the logic and try an alternate method.

    Or, if she really gets the ins-and-outs of the game, and is predisposed to having a sly skew to her personality, she'll figure out a balance of how to still work her femininity to her advantage, in a more subtle way.

    When things go sour she likes to fall back on the "he's being mean to me" excuse. She also has gotten tangled into two recent messes with an entp male coworker and a customer in which she got propositioned sexually, but just can't understand why, and then later said they were mean to her because she declined thier advances.
    A behaviour is reinforced by the consequence. If she cannot see that her behaviour is a direct line to the above consequence (for whatever skewness her cultural lens affords her)...then, the behaviour will continue. But, if she is pointed out that those behaviours of her directly leads to those negative consequences, then, there's hope.

    Being infantile and getting others to do stuff for her, only reinforces her behaviour as the consequence is a positive. She needs to see clearly the negatives of the consequences, or, at least, have it overshadow whatever perceived positives she sees.

    Or....she may be doing the rebellion thing ENTPs are known for, and being out of her native country, where I'm sure there were plenty of expectations to 'be a persona' (esp. if she is in line to take over a family business). Then, coming to the USA might, to her, feel like breaking out of the prison chains, and having carte blanche over her display of sexuality (which she might not have been able to indulge in in her native country). She's going a bit buck wild with the freedom? And, seeing its merit be worth MORE than any 'indirect' (to her) consequences that come out of it.

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