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  1. #11
    Senior Member norepinephrine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloud View Post
    what do you mean by chaos. as to a mess that people can see or chaos in your head.
    Interesting question. For me, it would be chaos that another might see, were they as invested in the particular problem as I tend to be. Mostly, they don't see unless I spend time explaining. And as my explanations are fragmented - interrupted while I untangle another thread - I doubt they make much sense.

    Damn, I love chaos.
    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    It's not a zero sum game. You're still a dork.

  2. #12
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by norepinephrine View Post
    Interesting question. For me, it would be chaos that another might see, were they as invested in the particular problem as I tend to be. Mostly, they don't see unless I spend time explaining. And as my explanations are fragmented - interrupted while I untangle another thread - I doubt they make much sense.

    Damn, I love chaos.
    Well if it comes to that, speak it out to someone. or write your thoughts down in a book. The more you express it, the clearer the idea become.
    The fear of poverty turns people into slaves of money.

    "In this Caesar there are many Mariuses"~Sulla

    Conquer your inner demons first before you conquer the world.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloud View Post
    what do you mean by chaos. as to a mess that people can see or chaos in your head.

    If chaos in your head, learn to let go and clear your mind. Any more control does nto work.
    I straight-up start fires in my life.

  4. #14
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    I don't believe in chaos or disorder. Maybe it's the Te in me, which seeks to ascribe order and organizing principles to everything in the external world. So for instance, one might say, "Gee the weather has been awfully chaotic lately." But after breaking the weather down and incorporating the coriolis effect, pressure gradient force, Hadley Cell and other cells, cyclones, anti-cyclones, climate change and so forth, then what appears to be "chaotic" can really be broken down systematically given a certain level of knowledge. In effect, chaos is a man-made socially constructed concept that is more of a reflection of one's inability to comprehend than the disarray of the reality it purports to characterize. Therefore, 'chaos' as a word is only an expression of one's inability to comprehend, and is not a valid statement about the concrete world. Indeed, time and time again old assumptions about chaos get replaced by perfectly logical explanations about the world in which we operate. For me, the fictionalization and then operationalization of the word 'chaos' is comparable to a church-goer who, whenever something is beyond immediate explanation, says god did it.

  5. #15
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Everything that makes me feel something I like to control for MYself. The rest is defiend by hope, luck and rock n'roll
    +1

  6. #16
    Senior Member LostInNerSpace's Avatar
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    Where does creative thinking comes from? It involves mixing together a lot of different ideas, trial and error. It's like assembling a multidimensional jigsaw puzzle. Multidimensional because the pieces can fit in many different places, in different ways and serve different purposes in different contexts. We INTPs do this because of our "P" tendencies. We don't want to find one cozy place for any given piece because pieces can fit in many places--we like to keep our options open. Often the puzzle doesn't even make any sense initially because we have not worked on the problem long enough to assemble enough it (puzzle/the big picture). When we do have enough of the puzzle assembled we can take in new information and quickly figure out where it makes sense to use that new information/piece, or what other pieces it can be combined it with.

    There is also an element of randomness to creativity. I often find listening to complex music can stimulate creative thinking because it causes my thinking to randomly jump between places. My theory is it is some kind of associative mechanism at work. An S might see a tree and think of the color, smell, texture or something directly related to the tree. An N might see a tree and think of vodka because he or she saw a dog peeing on a tree and the dog reminded them of drinking dog food vodka in college. I think certain tunes/beats, whatever you want to call them, invoke specific thoughts/memories--just like a smells can bring back decades old memories. Complex music stimulates many different thoughts at the same time. I find after I listen a track to death it stops stimulating creative ideas, presumably because I have learn to anticipate the beat--it is no longer random from my perspective. A side effect of the randomness is a lot of chaos.

    So INTPs have Ne (extraverted intuition). We wear our intuition on our sleeves. We often feel compelled to share that intuition, even if we know it is of little value. I often feel like I am tweeting my intuition. I see something similar in another type. Think about an extravert with extraverted thinking Te. This kind of person wears their thinking on their sleeve, their thinking is about other people. That kind of person may feel compelled to be out in front of people all the time selling their thinking.

    Have you seen pitchmen on the discovery channel with Billy Mays (Oxiclean) and Anthony Sullivan? They are both ENTPs and they also have Ne, except that their creative thinking is more about other people. They may feel compelled to always be out selling to other people, could be ideas or products. They have a good intuitive understanding of how products or ideas might benefit other people.

  7. #17
    in-game Gamine's Avatar
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    If Billy Mays is an ENTP, I am far too annoyed to call myself one as well.

    *MASS SHUDDERING*

    I do not "tweet" my ideas or processes. The role other people play in my idea creation is only that of development. I'm either including them to learn more to refine my own ideas, seeking perspectives other than my own, needing entertainment in the form of another person's mind or I'm asking them questions to learn more about them. I am looking for input or feedback, not sharing my own. I am right now, but this thread is annoying me as well. The "selling" or use of public as an "audience" happens rarely. It definitely happens, and effectively, but I've found people don't really care about ideas or theories anymore. They only care (giving importance/time/resources) to things that benefit them. Makes sense, but it leaves us all so differentiated that we lose our common ground for communication. Especially when we derive our individual values and identities by these differences. A shared language may hinder us, as seen in the language of English being used in significant occurrence within international scientific journals. How this language defines and guides our thoughts, while other languages allow for different interpretations and possibilities for research and explanation. But that is an entire topic in itself.

    Aren't INTPs Ti then Ne?

    Anyways, the point of my question in this thread was to find experiences or perspectives. Without sharing my own perspective (giving the question structure or control) I have not found what I was looking for, as I am also unwilling to share my own reference to create any common dialogue.
    "Beware Those Who Are ALWAYS READING BOOKS" - Bukowski

  8. #18
    Senior Member avolkiteshvara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwinkleToes View Post
    How/Where do you draw the line?


    I don't draw a line or try to give some artificial construct. I just go with what feels right.

    Sometimes I can get a little OCD(not sure if this is what you mean) if I don't monitor it. As an example, for a short bit I refused to drink anything but tap purified water. Couldn't be plastic, couldn't be directly from the tap. I think its an attempt give myself some stability when I am feeling too chaotic.

    Not sure if this what you mean though.

  9. #19
    in-game Gamine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by avolkiteshvara View Post
    I don't draw a line or try to give some artificial construct. I just go with what feels right.

    Sometimes I can get a little OCD(not sure if this is what you mean) if I don't monitor it. As an example, for a short bit I refused to drink anything but tap purified water. Couldn't be plastic, couldn't be directly from the tap. I think its an attempt give myself some stability when I am feeling too chaotic.

    Not sure if this what you mean though.
    You understand!
    "Beware Those Who Are ALWAYS READING BOOKS" - Bukowski

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwinkleToes View Post
    How do you see the spectrum? The relationship between living with chaos or where you have control over everything?
    I see the spectrum as a continuum between taking a proactive approach to life and taking a reactive approach to life. For instance, I would describe my one of my friends as inherently reactive. That is, he lets life come to him and lets the instrument (his person) play as it will. This has the advantage of affording him flexibility, room for improvization, and a certain degree of malleability. There are of course many disadvantages. For example, he is the type of person who will buy $200 dollar sunglasses, and a few days later be recycling tea bags over and over because there is no food to eat. I myself have sought to sharpen my instincts so that my reactions are still highly conducive to self-preservation. At the other end of the spectrum is a proactive person who sees life as consisting of a set of obstacles waiting to be overcome. In effect, this person seeks to set goals and come up with plans detailing processes for achieving those goals, measurable targets, and an effective timeline/regimen. Of course, to pursue a proactive stance to its extreme would amount to micromanaging every aspect of life, but this is an inefficient system since life is often stochastic. Therefore, both planning and an aptitude for improvization are critical to a utility maximizing system. When it comes to work, school, people I am loyal to, and my personal goals, I tend toward the proactive side which is linked to my preference for judging/closure. For just about everything else, I am indifferent and merely trust that my instincts are sharp enough that I will respond acutely as it comes to me.

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