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View Poll Results: What if your prefered argument outcome?

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  • Be right

    29 70.73%
  • Have everyone else think you are right

    12 29.27%
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Results 31 to 40 of 46

  1. #31
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    Well thank you for the clarification. My statement was based on the oft-observed snideness from Ps regarding Js exacting nature. I definitely do prefer precision over sloppiness (thus the comment about wanting things "clarified and understood"), so if that's "procrustean" then I will happily accept the label.
    Actually, that's not what I am talking about.

    Usually the point of being "J" is being closure-oriented.

    Being closure-oriented means that completing the task and/or having a functional solution is the priority.

    Thus, at least from an NTP perspective, to reach closure we see J's reaching premature conclusions on things that cannot actually be concluded yet, for whatever reason. NTPs are more interested in the nuance; in that respect -- the details of the conceptual -- we are more fastidious. I suppose if you're wielding Te, you can be very fastidious in the external details... but you'll lop off the conceptual aspect in the process of achieving your goal.

    THAT's what I meant. Your talk of "fastidious" isn't really in the same area I was discussing, I don't care that much about the external details except as far as they impact the rigor of the conceptual framework and then they become important.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #32
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    The P/J sloppiness/precision comparison is odd. I don't think of J as more precision, but rather more of a drive to decisiveness, which IMHO doesn't necessarily mean more precision. If we are looking at getting the precise understanding of something, the P's relative lack of drive for/commitment to decisiveness could well mean greater precision (of input) at the expense of decisive action. It's where you implement your understanding that J would seem to be better at precise outcomes.

  3. #33
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    As the two above posters say, I can (as INTP) be quite precise. This type of perfectionism can result in never reaching a conclusion/decision as the details are not quite "right" or I think there is more information out there to be gathered.

    So I dither and don't actually get anything done.

  4. #34
    Senior Member forzen's Avatar
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    I'd like an argument to end in a closure, i hate one's that ends in a cliffhanger.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Actually, that's not what I am talking about.

    Usually the point of being "J" is being closure-oriented.

    Being closure-oriented means that completing the task and/or having a functional solution is the priority.

    Thus, at least from an NTP perspective, to reach closure we see J's reaching premature conclusions on things that cannot actually be concluded yet, for whatever reason. NTPs are more interested in the nuance; in that respect -- the details of the conceptual -- we are more fastidious. I suppose if you're wielding Te, you can be very fastidious in the external details... but you'll lop off the conceptual aspect in the process of achieving your goal.

    THAT's what I meant. Your talk of "fastidious" isn't really in the same area I was discussing, I don't care that much about the external details except as far as they impact the rigor of the conceptual framework and then they become important.
    Well, that was what I was talking about. I'm afraid you've misunderstood me as much as I've misunderstood you. I'm interested in getting precise definitions that I can work with to figure out the right course of action. Diddling around with details that muddy the issues isn't a route to precision that I understand. Give me what I need to make a decision. I can modify it if more data/information becomes available later.

    I suppose it may be "a forest for the trees" difference rather being more or less "fastidious" (though I don't believe that would be a choice of words I'd have choose here). Please remember I wasn't commenting on the P tendencies, I have no subjective experience with that. From what I understand regarding all of this stuff, ENTJs don't usually have trouble with overlooking the "conceptual aspect". You can say a lot of nasty things about us but that's probably a fairly inaccurate statement. On the other hand, I have seen a number of NTPs get so mired in detail that they forget what they were even doing in the first place. The fact that there ever was a conceptual framework available is completely lost in the so-called search for precision. To those of us on the outside, it looks like a lot of farting around.

  6. #36
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    That "fastidiousness" of perception and description goes a long way towards innovation. Being concerned with what's true rather than just what works is what gives birth to conceptual frameworks in the first place, and the "data that comes available later" provide routes for fine-tuning and specialization. Implementation-focus is for those who give a hoot with what works now over what could work.
    Last edited by INA; 05-12-2009 at 01:34 PM.

  7. #37
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I am always right
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  8. #38
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    I just want to be heard and understood. You can do whatever you want with the information, I don't care. I will argue until I think that you've listened and absorbed. Usually that involves some sort of concession: I don't agree with you, but I understand where you are coming from, or I concede that point, or whatever. I also don't end it until I do the same for the other person.

  9. #39
    Is Willard in Footloose!! CJ99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cenomite View Post
    I'm really surprised at how many people picked option #2.

    Anyone who did, could you please explain why?
    I picked option two because its the only option in which i'm wrong which is far more interesting and enlightening than being right.
    "I'd never die for my beliefs, I might be wrong"

    "Is it not enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe there are fairys at the bottom of it too"

    "Intelligence is being able to hold too opposing views in the mind at the one time without going crazy" - Now all I need to figure out is if I'm intelligent or crazy!

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I just want to be heard and understood. You can do whatever you want with the information, I don't care. I will argue until I think that you've listened and absorbed. Usually that involves some sort of concession: I don't agree with you, but I understand where you are coming from, or I concede that point, or whatever. I also don't end it until I do the same for the other person.
    +1

    I don't engage an any debate or argument where one party is trying to prove the other party wrong, and not hearing or acknowledging what they're actually saying.
    Something Witty

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