[INTP] INTP relationship patterns and how to break them?

[bluebell]

I'm looking for responses from INTPs or those who are familiar with the INTP modus operandi in relationships.

I realised earlier today that there are some unhealthy patterns that I follow but I can kinda see how to break those. However, Aderack's posts below has made me suddenly realise I have no idea how to break this particular pattern (and off the top of my head, I can think of another two INTPs who also have this pattern, one of whom is my INTP ex).

What I'm after is ideas on how to break this pattern. I have no intention of getting into another relationship any time soon, but I don't want to make the same mistakes if/when I ever do. Looking for input from the INTP hivemind on this one.

Reposted from another thread:

Every time anything at all has gone wrong in a relationship, my first assumption has been that I've made a mistake somewhere along the way. So I've gone about trying to identify that problem and then fix it, however seems sensible to me.

It rarely occurs to me that the problem might be in some external factor -- say, the other person in the relationship. It's that I've somehow failed to understand and appropriately respond to the situation. And fair enough. I will try to adapt myself to the conditions as I see them.

As you imagine this doesn't work out in the long term. After a few years in a relationship, I turn into something of a pretzel, trying to contort myself around everything presented to me -- and she tends to lose respect in me, from my failure to assert myself. Honestly, though, I just don't think of it. Not until things collapse and I look back, and I think, holy cow; why did I put up with all of that? What's wrong with me? And what's wrong with her, that she thought nothing of lumping me with all of this? Cue the mood swings.

So. I recognize this pattern. If there's any manipulation going on, and I guess there probably is on some level, I'd be surprised if he were aware of it; it's probably more of a consequence than a direct object of his behavior.

This just sounds like an attempt to rationalize a situation that he feels is beyond his control. The problem can't be with you, because, hey, he loves you. Therefore it's got to be with him. So, he thinks, let's figure that out.

I'll note that this isn't a self-image thing, either. It's just, well. One is used to applying one's self to problems in a certain way. If I don't understand a system, it's because I'm thinking wrong. So I come at the problem from another angle, until I find something that works. And I keep on at it, autonomously, until I've cracked the puzzle. The same impersonal reasoning and methodology goes into relationships -- not deliberately; it's just how one is used to dealing with stuff.

Combine that with a profoundly weak awareness of one's own practical and emotional needs (which again ain't an ego thing; it's just a complete blind spot), and it's pretty easy to find one's self coiled into some bizarre shapes.

The problem here is in not recognizing (except perhaps in the abstract) that a human relationship isn't a static system, and can't be understood in a vacuum. Any solution would seem to lie in better defining the parameters of the system. Here; this pattern over here is what you can work on. Go nuts.

My god, get out of my head. This is a fair chunk of the reason why I recently ended an 18 year relationship. And the 'coiled into bizarre shapes' is so so true. As soon as I made the decision, I could feel the weird knots and twists straightening out in my head. I was only aware of the knots in their absence.

There are definitely hazards in being a compulsive problem solver. Very hard to stay true to oneself if you treat yourself as just one of many variables. And given yourself is the only variable you have control over, I think that's why the contortions and shifts occur. At the risk of getting kicked by Lithograph, the tendency of treating the mind as a construction project also contributes.

Yes, absolutely, all of this. Curse of the INTP makeup. The above sounds like probably what's going on in the OP's boyfriend's head. In his mind, it isn't about you, it's about what he's doing wrong--why HE hit a roadblock--so he's trying out a few scenarios to fix it. Because probably in his head, he's flexing and thinking that it's not unreasonable for you to be tied up with work and school, and he can relate to that. So rather than say, "I'm going to need to you to make a little time for me," he flexes, and figures out how to temporarily "fix" the "problem" of his sex drive until you can get back to him. He's probably trying to make it more convenient for you, but since emotional things aren't really a "system," it doesn't work.

 

[Lithograph]

Maybe a willingness to make demands and be assertive about one's emotional ninja desires are part of the solution to breaking out of this pattern. Identifying same, and being comfortable with them in any useful time frame is of course another story.

Could a solution be giving yourself permission to make a need expressly clear or impose on your partner with the justification that you naturally bend so much? An off-ramp from the "I don't like demands and can rationalize anything" loop.

 

[ring the bell]

I think the first part of it is being able to step back and see that there even is a problem. INTP's are known for being chameleons and mirroring people. I agree with what is posted above. I've found myself questioning myself so much and trying to figure out what I did wrong so many times. My theory is that we do this in relationships as well, as a way to make it easier. I know I do, at least. I will meld to whatever I think is the path of least resistence and go with it. I do this because I care for the person and want to make them happy. I will even sacrifice my own happiness to some extent and put up with way more than I should really have to.

So maybe the key to breaking the cycle is really trying hard to be true to yourself. Really think about it and give the person a chance to like, or dislike, you early on for what you truly desire. That's a pretty general statement, but it's all I've got. And I've been thinking on this one a lot lately myself..

 

[Lithograph]

So maybe the key to breaking the cycle is really trying hard to be true to yourself. Really think about it and give the person a chance to like, or dislike, you early on for what you truly desire.

I like your train of thought here.

Do you find yourself able to establish a (mostly) unequivocal view of who you are and what you desire, in the moment, that allows you to do this? If so, how?

 

[ring the bell]

I like your train of thought here.

Do you find yourself able to establish a (mostly) unequivocal view of who you are and what you desire, in the moment, that allows you to do this? If so, how?

It's just a theory, at the moment. I haven't had a chance to test it out yet.. I'm on a rest from even trying to go there for a bit, just because it's been pretty horrifying with how things have ended for me in the past. But I've been in a phase lately with myself anyway of just trying to dig in a bit more and really understand what I want. i'm so indecisive, its not funny... i mean, take me to a restaraunt and I will antagonize over what to order... too many choices. Ask me what I want to do, I have no idea. So many things could be fun or interesting. So I'm honestly just taking some time to really try to determine what I want out of things and understand myself a bit more. I'll see where that leads me..

 

[Verfremdungseffekt]

I will say that this is why I'm in no rush to get into another amorous relationship. It's hard, under the above conditions, for me to keep tabs on my sense of self -- a sense that I'm just finding again, for the first time in maybe a decade. It's been a long and painful decompression; enough so that I really don't see much value in going through that business again. At least, not with the tools I've got.

Maybe in another five or ten years I'll have figured things out enough. In the meantime, I feel like I've got some living to catch up on.

 

[bluebell]

Could a solution be giving yourself permission to make a need expressly clear or impose on your partner with the justification that you naturally bend so much? An off-ramp from the "I don't like demands and can rationalize anything" loop.

That's one possibility, but I'm not sure that's enough to stop the excessive flex to the other person.

I think the first part of it is being able to step back and see that there even is a problem. INTP's are known for being chameleons and mirroring people. I agree with what is posted above. I've found myself questioning myself so much and trying to figure out what I did wrong so many times. My theory is that we do this in relationships as well, as a way to make it easier. I know I do, at least. I will meld to whatever I think is the path of least resistence and go with it. I do this because I care for the person and want to make them happy. I will even sacrifice my own happiness to some extent and put up with way more than I should really have to.

I relate to all of this. A lot. And I do it without noticing. I think it's most risky if the other person isn't particularly healthy.

So maybe the key to breaking the cycle is really trying hard to be true to yourself. Really think about it and give the person a chance to like, or dislike, you early on for what you truly desire. That's a pretty general statement, but it's all I've got. And I've been thinking on this one a lot lately myself..

I've been thinking about this too for a long while, mostly in regards to RL friendships and only more recently for relationships. I do the mirroring and chameleoning unconciously. Perhaps a useful first step (for me) is to be able to conciously switch it off more.

I will say that this is why I'm in no rush to get into another amorous relationship. It's hard, under the above conditions, for me to keep tabs on my sense of self -- a sense that I'm just finding again, for the first time in maybe a decade. It's been a long and painful decompression; enough so that I really don't see much value in going through that business again. At least, not with the tools I've got.

Maybe in another five or ten years I'll have figured things out enough. In the meantime, I feel like I've got some living to catch up on.

I hear you on that. I have every intention of staying single for at least a couple of years. However, I'm also concious that love can sneak up unexpectedly and I don't want to make any hard and fast decisions this far out.

Decompression is a good way to describe it. And in regards to the bolded bit, that's exactly why I started this thread.

Still hoping for more input. I may need to ask for this thread to be moved to an open part of the forum, but then it risks getting overrun with non-relevant replies.

 

[Verfremdungseffekt]

INTP love is SCUBA love...

 

[zago]

I think it is all over-analysis. There's no rhyme or reason, no formula, to this sort of thing. Sometimes things just work, sometimes they don't. The best thing you can do is recognize when things are beyond repair and move on.

 

[bluebell]

I think it is all over-analysis. There's no rhyme or reason, no formula, to this sort of thing. Sometimes things just work, sometimes they don't. The best thing you can do is recognize when things are beyond repair and move on.

It happens unconciously. And it's actually the opposite of analysis - it's auto pilot and can take an insane amount of time to notice (years is not untypical).

 

[zago]

It happens unconsciously. And it's actually the opposite of analysis - it's auto pilot and can take an insane amount of time to notice (years is not untypical).

No I mean I think this is overanalysis.

 

[bluebell]

No I mean I think this is overanalysis.

Heh. No, this is trying to avoid repeating damaging patterns. Going with the flow is why I ended up where I did.

 

[zago]

Heh. No, this is trying to avoid repeating damaging patterns. Going with the flow is why I ended up where I did.

Then my best guess is finding someone who you can comfortably argue with. That's what I look for in people, and I've only ever known 1 person I could do this with regularly. I find that trying to be patient when something is wrong doesn't actually help anything. Perhaps INTPs just need to argue a lot and not many people "get it." Any good relationship I've ever had has had a healthy amount of conflict, but neither party took the conflict too seriously. That's the only crappy suggestion I have to offer. I'm not too experienced in relationships.

 

[ring the bell]

What Zago has to say is interesting. I have noticed that i do avoid conflict at all costs. I may notice that something is hurting me or angering me, but I just kinda drop it and move on. Maybe it drags on because the conflict is where the true growth happens.. It could be growth closer to each other or it could be growth away from each other. But I would rather something ended because it's not meant to be than to figure it out 2 years down the line.

Love doesn't come so easy for INTP's. It can, if the conditions are right, but we introspect so much and analyze every little thing. It makes it nearly impossible to let a normal course of events happen. We truly want it to be all good and to have it naturally work out, but we exert our own control over it by avoiding the conflict. I really don't think it's out of cowardice.

 

[MacGuffin]

You have to engage in honest self-analysis in order to see your blind spots and problems. Even ask for feedback from people that know you well.

Then get used to spotting the problem when it is happening. Then break the cycle by not doing what you've done in the past, or take action if your problem is inaction (that's actually my problem - too passive at times).

 

[Tallulah]

Yeah, I'm very conflict-avoidant. If I outright feel I've been wronged, then I'll say something, but if it's the little things, I'll just let them roll, even if they start adding up. Of course, I think it's probably every INTP's worst nightmare to be continually having Relationship Temperature-Taking Talks.

 

[Verfremdungseffekt]

It's funny how willing one is to say, "Well, that's reasonable. I see where s/he's coming from. Fair enough." I swear, it almost never occurs to me to question.

The side effect, historically, is that they end up feeling absurdly entitled. They keep pushing harder, and become less and less patient with my own requests. And okay, sure. I can understand that.

If I ever embark on this again, I'm really going to figure out how to set limits. The problem is determining just where to draw the line.

 

[Salt n' pepper]

I’m not an INTP, but speaking from someone who is currently in a relationship with an INTP, I think experience is the only thing that can help the INTP to break this pattern. I think INTPs are doing it backwards, when it comes to relationships. Imo, relationships have to be experienced and then analyzed. Not the other way around. I think experiencing relationships, gathering information from those experiences, is the only way for an INTP to grow.

Also, I think breaking a pattern is mostly about replacing it with a new one. So if you’re used to deal with problems one way, and you realize that, that didn’t work out. Analyze the “flaws in the system” and try out a new “system”. Hopefully, that “system” will be an improved version of the old one and then you just have to remind yourself to use the new one when encountering a problem. After using it for a while, it becomes a pattern.

My two cents.

 

[Salomé]

I will meld to whatever I think is the path of least resistence and go with it. I do this because I care for the person and want to make them happy. I will even sacrifice my own happiness to some extent and put up with way more than I should really have to.

I will do this up to a point and no further. I won't live my life for someone else.

I will say that this is why I'm in no rush to get into another amorous relationship. It's hard, under the above conditions, for me to keep tabs on my sense of self -- a sense that I'm just finding again, for the first time in maybe a decade. It's been a long and painful decompression; enough so that I really don't see much value in going through that business again. At least, not with the tools I've got.

+1
Really doesn't seem worth the aggravation.

Then my best guess is finding someone who you can comfortably argue with. That's what I look for in people, and I've only ever known 1 person I could do this with regularly. I find that trying to be patient when something is wrong doesn't actually help anything. Perhaps INTPs just need to argue a lot and not many people "get it." Any good relationship I've ever had has had a healthy amount of conflict, but neither party took the conflict too seriously. .

I don't know if it is about conflict as much as about being comfortable enough to be completely honest without worrying about consequences. And knowing that the other person feels the same way. That is pretty rare, IME. Arguing is second nature to me, it's my default way of communicating. But I don't like conflict. I see one as constructive and the other as destructive.

 

[Popsicle]

You have to engage in honest self-analysis in order to see your blind spots and problems. Even ask for feedback from people that know you well.

Then get used to spotting the problem when it is happening. Then break the cycle by not doing what you've done in the past, or take action if your problem is inaction (that's actually my problem - too passive at times).

This.

Coincidentally, I have, over the past week, spent an inordinate amount of time trying to figure out what I must have done to make the guy I've been dating the past three months suddenly become very distant (to the point where I doubt there is a relationship anymore.) I guess my thought process is that if his attitude towards me has changed, I must have done something to precipitate that change, and if I can figure out what that something is, I can fix it and reverse the change. Yeah, right.

However, knowing that I have this tendency, I finally decided to talk it over with a male friend of mine, whose opinions I trust. He has seen me make the same mistakes over and over and has offered to "coach" me (yes, I realize how pathetic I must be to require this). This friend also has has known me for years and has known the guy even longer. His answer? He told me that this guy has things in his life he needs to get cleaned up, that this has to do with his issues, not anything I've done or not done, and that I should not have to deal with it. What? It wasn't anything I did? It's not something I can fix? Why couldn't I see this?

I still haven't figured out why I always think this way, nor can I seem to break that pattern...but I do know that having a second, nonbiased opinion can really make a difference.

Of course, even knowing that my friend is right doesn't mean I won't *still* play that game inside my head -- but it at least gives me an alternative to mull over.