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  1. #21
    Self sustaining supernova Zoom's Avatar
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    It's funny how willing one is to say, "Well, that's reasonable. I see where s/he's coming from. Fair enough." I swear, it almost never occurs to me to question.

    The side effect, historically, is that they end up feeling absurdly entitled. They keep pushing harder, and become less and less patient with my own requests. And okay, sure. I can understand that.

    If I ever embark on this again, I'm really going to figure out how to set limits. The problem is determining just where to draw the line.
    This is the exact problem I've had with familial and romantic relationships - setting boundaries is one of the harder things for me, because I naturally am... laid back? Reasonable?

    I don't understand how others can feel all right with what they're doing - taking advantage of the trust and no-questions-asked acceptance of mine they have.

    Well, I can understand it from an intellectual point of view - but not from a personal stance. I don't do that, and am unable to see how they consider it fair or good.

  2. #22
    videodrones; questions Verfremdungseffekt's Avatar
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    That's pretty much it. In the moment, anyway, something in my head assumes she wouldn't press the point unless it was important. This keeps building until all sense of proportion goes out the window. Ultimately and in retrospect, I tend to wind up feeling used. Betrayed, even. Golly, I think. She was a bit of a monster, wasn't she.

    That may not be altogether fair, of course -- particularly if she was expecting some signals I was just too dense to provide. But, well.

    Ick.

  3. #23
    Senior Member bluebell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Popsicle View Post
    I still haven't figured out why I always think this way, nor can I seem to break that pattern...but I do know that having a second, nonbiased opinion can really make a difference.

    Of course, even knowing that my friend is right doesn't mean I won't *still* play that game inside my head -- but it at least gives me an alternative to mull over.
    I suspect this might be the way out of the pattern in the long run. I've noticed I'm doing this at work now, whereas before I assumed it was something I'd done and needed to fix. The external POV is a good reality check. Like you say, I still first think what did *I* do wrong, and sure, quite often there are things I could have done differently/more tactfully, but usually there's something else going on that I'm completely oblivious to.
    ...so much smoke pouring out of each chromosome.

  4. #24
    videodrones; questions Verfremdungseffekt's Avatar
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    Ho. I just had a flash, regarding how furious my last companion was that, when things were falling apart, I regularly consulted my friends for help in working out just what the hell was happening.

    One apparently tranquil moment, a while after we had moved out yet were still seeing each other, I mentioned to her how I missed having her around. She whipped around and demanded of me: "Have you called all you friends and told them you were wrong and I was right?"

    I... what? I didn't even know specifically what she was talking about. Nor would she clarify. Well, that visit didn't end well.

  5. #25
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aderack View Post
    Ho. I just had a flash, regarding how furious my last companion was that, when things were falling apart, I regularly consulted my friends for help in working out just what the hell was happening.

    One apparently tranquil moment, a while after we had moved out yet were still seeing each other, I mentioned to her how I missed having her around. She whipped around and demanded of me: "Have you called all you friends and told them you were wrong and I was right?"

    I... what? I didn't even know specifically what she was talking about. Nor would she clarify. Well, that visit didn't end well.
    I didn't read the rest of the thread yet (although I will), but it sounds to me like she heard some stuff you said to your friends, and that you seemed to think you'd be fine being apart / more distant from her, so you moved apart, and now you made a comment as if you were realizing you really wished you had stayed together.

    (And probably a little bit of passive/aggressive "irk" in there because you were talking to all your friends about her and she probably felt misrepresented. And perhaps also that you were able to talk so deeply to your friends about the relationship but probably found it hard to talk to her, so she feels slighted a bit?)

    That's how I read what she said, without knowing anything more.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #26
    Self sustaining supernova Zoom's Avatar
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    Oh, I do the same thing to help with the navigation - if only to tell me whether or not my perspective is a skewed one (i.e., fair to me...). Since the taking-advantage-of bit didn't occur to me till a few months in, now I'm establishing certain boundaries - and meeting resistance, probably because I am changing what the dynamic has been thus far.

    When I'm caught between others' expectations - companion and family's, along with my own of what I need to do to keep my self - that's when the twisting up inside happens. It can be a physical pain right behind the sternum, just because this is a problem that sometimes - no amount of analysis and problem-solving techniques can resolve without simply removing oneself from the equation.


  7. #27
    videodrones; questions Verfremdungseffekt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That's how I read what she said, without knowing anything more.
    The relationship didn't dissolve very simply or cleanly. She first began to pull away; as much as I loved her, I agreed, because, well, if that's how she felt, I wasn't going to argue.

    Then immediately she began to impose herself on me. She wouldn't leave me alone. Yet the moment I showed any interest in return, she would vanish in a puff of anger. For a year it kept going back and forth like this, she inveigling herself into my life at whim yet I being disallowed to even call her.

    Eventually I'd had enough, and just shut her out completely. The last I saw her, she was scuttling around the corners of her apartment, half terrified and half flirtatious, as I collected the last of my things.

    The conversation in question took place during the second paragraph, there. Over that period, she simultaneously refused to talk with me about our relationship and was furious with me whenever I tried to figure things out on my own.

    She kept insisting there were no problems, and took the suggestion that things weren't perfect betwen us as a personal affront. What really pissed her off was the idea that we weren't communicating effectively. I don't think she saw the irony.

    Of course I needed to understand, so I turned to third parties as a sounding board. It's interesting that this should have angered her so much, as I was the last person she went to on anything between us. She would make plans and consult with all of her family and friends before presenting me with decrees.

    ...

    So the situation was pretty complicated. What specifically she was referring to -- well, it could have been anything. Her responses often didn't directly follow anything I'd said.

    Later in that same conversation for instance, she, out of nowhere, demanded how dare I suggest that she'd gotten the idea to move apart from watching a sitcom?! What it turned out she was referring to was a comment from months earlier, where I said that what we were going through at the time seemed pretty stereotypical relationship stuff -- the kind of thing you might see on a sitcom -- so we should be able to sit down and work through it one way or another.

    Of course, the implication that she had gotten the idea from a sitcom... uh. That doesn't make any sense at all. It's ridiculous and unreasonable, which, since I (apparently) suggested it, made me ridiculous and unreasonable. Though, come to think of it, why she had such an extreme emotional response to this interpretation... um. Well, not sure what to think, there.

    This kind of (yes) communication problem seemed to turn up in just about every serious conversation. Yet she'd never bring it up at the time, and never seemed to give me the benefit of the doubt that I wasn't completely insane. She'd just sit on these bizarre interpretations and stew for months, even years. And then when she brought them to light, I could say nothing to convince her that her interpretation wasn't the correct one. Anything I did say was just grist for new misunderstanding.

    Uh. You can tell I've not processed all this stuff as well as I'd like. It's all still a furious, painful muddle.

    I guess I should note -- I'm not really looking for answers right now; I've spent too much energy on this, and I've got better things to think about. I'm just addressing your own attempts at finding order. It's not so easy!

  8. #28
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    Wow, INTP behavior. It's amazing to me how much of these symptoms I recognize from a previous relationship. Me bending over backwards to make him happy, being completely (ridiculously) trusting of his motives, and basically falling under the shadow of his ego.

    When it ended, I spent a good while wondering what I had done wrong. Why I wasn't good enough (even though there were obvious extraneous factors like religion). When the next girl came into the picture, I thought, "this doesn't make sense, I do x, y, and z better than her") and basically made the thing into an equation It took a long time before I realized that emotions don't always require justification, and that actions don't necessarily reflect emotion. There was very little emotional intelligence between the two of us, let's just say I didn't want to get over it until I understood it, but that would have been impossible. At the breaking point, I decided to completely severe my attachment because the person was not worth it anymore.

    But being around a more emotionally intelligent, caring guy who didn't take advantage of me taught me that not everyone is like that. Most of the time, when people seriously take advantage of your trust, they're not worthy of it. It's better that the relationship ended. Of course, people aren't perfect, but it is so nice to be with someone who's cool with your natural personality. I think that INTPs might like getting occupied with all the problems in a relationship though; it's engrossing. But the thing to remember is that there's no problem or solution. Relationships are all about the journey

    Aderack, that really sucks what happened. Given time, I think you'll sort it out in your mind.

  9. #29
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    I am an INTP and I am unclear on what the OP wants. Consider getting out of your head. If you enjoy stewing in your head consider turning your challenge into a mind game. Consider Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) for the game of breaking negative anchors. Consider short term or creating light friendly relationships to temporary fill or supplement the emotional void. I personally prefer to avoid LTRs. Consider religion/spirituality and volunteerism.

    Being in a LTR relationship is like having a second job or being a parent. You have to have some interest in setting boundaries and micromanaging or it will all go to hell. Being laidback or oblivious aint gonna cut it, neither will being a doormat and certainly not being yourself (unless of course you get out of your personality type to another uncomfortable personality/lifestyle form, build and put into implementation the unique relationship construct which only a INTP architect could devise if they put their head to it and then slipping back in the INTP role to enjoy the profits thereof)

    INTPs, we are the minority we are not very similar other people, we don't feel like other people. Simply being morally right in our heads is not going to change the world. Nor will convincingly reframing the facts to gain other peoples sympathy; we are just too good at spinning the facts to fit our beliefs. So "if you choose" to get into a long term relationship, don't assume you can play it by your own rules with anyone besides another INTP (perhaps could skate by with an INTJ). Our needs in a relationship are basic but most of our partner's needs are not and that is the crux.
    Last edited by Vizconde; 09-01-2009 at 07:02 PM. Reason: i am an INTP

  10. #30
    Senior Member bluebell's Avatar
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    Necromancing this because, well, I met someone. I've also done a hell of a lot of work on myself and now have two friends (one online, one IRL) who I can be honest and open with. That's probably helped more than anything, as well as getting rid of irrational projections (and heh, that only happened a few weeks ago).

    Quoting the bits that, in hindsight, are the path out of this. ie I'm optimistic this time.

    Quote Originally Posted by ring the bell View Post
    I think the first part of it is being able to step back and see that there even is a problem. INTP's are known for being chameleons and mirroring people. I agree with what is posted above. I've found myself questioning myself so much and trying to figure out what I did wrong so many times. My theory is that we do this in relationships as well, as a way to make it easier. I know I do, at least. I will meld to whatever I think is the path of least resistence and go with it. I do this because I care for the person and want to make them happy. I will even sacrifice my own happiness to some extent and put up with way more than I should really have to.

    So maybe the key to breaking the cycle is really trying hard to be true to yourself. Really think about it and give the person a chance to like, or dislike, you early on for what you truly desire. That's a pretty general statement, but it's all I've got. And I've been thinking on this one a lot lately myself..
    Already doing the bolded. Keeping an independent life is important, I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderack View Post
    It's funny how willing one is to say, "Well, that's reasonable. I see where s/he's coming from. Fair enough." I swear, it almost never occurs to me to question.

    The side effect, historically, is that they end up feeling absurdly entitled. They keep pushing harder, and become less and less patient with my own requests. And okay, sure. I can understand that.

    If I ever embark on this again, I'm really going to figure out how to set limits. The problem is determining just where to draw the line.
    To start with, I'd rather draw the line a little harder than it might need to be if I didn't have my history. Again, I think this is important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salt n' pepper View Post
    Im not an INTP, but speaking from someone who is currently in a relationship with an INTP, I think experience is the only thing that can help the INTP to break this pattern. I think INTPs are doing it backwards, when it comes to relationships. Imo, relationships have to be experienced and then analyzed. Not the other way around. I think experiencing relationships, gathering information from those experiences, is the only way for an INTP to grow.

    Also, I think breaking a pattern is mostly about replacing it with a new one. So if youre used to deal with problems one way, and you realize that, that didnt work out. Analyze the flaws in the system and try out a new system. Hopefully, that system will be an improved version of the old one and then you just have to remind yourself to use the new one when encountering a problem. After using it for a while, it becomes a pattern.
    More useful stuff. And I've successfully done that with a few other unhealthy patterns this year, so I know it does work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I don't know if it is about conflict as much as about being comfortable enough to be completely honest without worrying about consequences. And knowing that the other person feels the same way. That is pretty rare, IME. Arguing is second nature to me, it's my default way of communicating. But I don't like conflict. I see one as constructive and the other as destructive.
    Done the bolded with a couple of friendships. Again, I think this is important. I'm not sure how to get spontaneously get into honesty with someone. With the two friends, they were both honest and open first then I followed their lead.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluebell View Post
    I suspect this might be the way out of the pattern in the long run. I've noticed I'm doing this at work now, whereas before I assumed it was something I'd done and needed to fix. The external POV is a good reality check. Like you say, I still first think what did *I* do wrong, and sure, quite often there are things I could have done differently/more tactfully, but usually there's something else going on that I'm completely oblivious to.
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    INTPs, we are the minority we are not very similar other people, we don't feel like other people. Simply being morally right in our heads is not going to change the world. Nor will convincingly reframing the facts to gain other peoples sympathy; we are just too good at spinning the facts to fit our beliefs. So "if you choose" to get into a long term relationship, don't assume you can play it by your own rules with anyone besides another INTP (perhaps could skate by with an INTJ). Our needs in a relationship are basic but most of our partner's needs are not and that is the crux.
    *grin*
    ...so much smoke pouring out of each chromosome.

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