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  1. #111
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I recently, very unfortunately, ended a profitable relationship with a business partner because she was too damn emotional. I love her to death, but working with her was a nightmare. I was never allowed to say anything, for fear it was a personal attack. The minute she read anything remotely negative by email, she would flip out and come to all sorts of conclusions about what I was trying to say. Well, I never try to say anything - I just say it. She imagined the worst case scenario at every step. If I tell her that next time, she should let me know if a certain supplier has a certain deal, she took that as me saying she was ineffective and inefficient. If I told her that she looks good today, she'll take that as me meaning she didn't look good yesterday. When she would call me and cry, I would explain what I meant. Then later when she calmed down, she would call and apologize because after re-reading, she realized it wasn't actually bad in the first place. This would happen almost on a daily basis. I would rearrange my words for hours on a daily basis before sending her emails, to no avail. No matter what I said or did, her first reaction was offense. We would waste countless hours each day dealing with this. When she had problems with me, she would never tell me, making the problem quadruple in her mind to the point where she was calling Dr. Laura or whoever that radio personality is on a weekly basis. But she never told me - her excuse: she prefers harmony. Well, how harmonious is dishonesty and secret resentments? I ended the partnership last week. She has called me every day since then crying and wondering why it was over. No matter what I say, she won't hear me. She imagines what she believes to be the truth and refuses to face reality. If she asks, and I answer, she will just add her own color to it and go off on tangents. So I have to use stronger words, so she gets it. Then that starts a whole new cycle of tears because I am so mean... She lives in her own fantasy world. And all the hours on the phone doing crisis management, she thinks that was productive and she still can't understand why this stresses me out and makes me want to sever ties with her. Because she refuses to hear me, I must be quite aggressive with my words - so there is no misinterpretation. And this is when the tears start again. I have no patience at this point because I have tried and failed, so the tears seem like a tactic to make me concede or feel bad. This sort of manipulation irritates me to no end. She wouldn't have been hurt if she had just listened in the first place.
    Good lord, what do you think is this woman's type? I am surprised you dealt with that for as long as you did. Kudos to you.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  2. #112
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Heart: I wasn't speaking about you specifically, sorry if you got that impression.

    Again, maybe it's just your (not you specifically) perception - your own knee jerk reaction, which is why I made the point about my business partner who does the same. But what I've learned over the years is that when communication breaks down, it is usually the fault of both parties.

    When your guns are blazing in your end of the debate, are you speaking factually or emotionally? I can tell you that in the infidelity thread, for instance, I got annoyed when people responded to my points about disloyalty and dishonesty with "well, your stance ensures that you will be cheated on." If that's not a veiled personal attack, I don't know what is. This type of argument is not grounded in any sort of fact (there have been no studies that prove that people who are against infidelity get cheated on more). At this point, the argument is illogical and I no longer see the benefit of it. But like I said, the words on the page have no indication as to what I am feeling inside.

    Again, I feel most irritated when someone belabors the point past is freshness date.

    Maybe male thinkers tiptoe around women more? I see them tear each other to shreds often, so maybe it's the kid glove treatment?

    I can't speak for the ISTJ mindset - maybe one here can chip in?

    Saslou: No one is smarter than anyone else based on type. It's simply not the truth. I've met plenty of people that can show me a thing or two about multitudes of things. Please don't sell yourself short.

    And seriously, before the tears start, just say "hey, that was uncalled for, let's keep this on the up and up" and most times, we'll snap out of it. I seriously can't read body language well and I don't understand a lot of subtext. Make it clear and concise. This is the way to control our dialogue. If you say, that you have your own views that do not align with mine, but you are unable to verbalize them effectively, that should be enough for most of us to let it die. If you continue to try to explain, then that is seen as you wanting to continue the debate. I think that if you can dish it, you can take it.

    Orangey: She says she's ENFP, but I don't know. I could see ExFP, to be honest, but definitely a FiTe combo. I know she's been really sheltered in a community that is very different from the one in which most of us live. She's also never been in a position to deal with life logically and in this way. Because of her good heart and our cultural differences, I gave her a lot of leeway. And I'm sure she did the same for me. She doesn't meet women like me in her daily life at all. And we were friends, so I took more time than I normally would have. But at some point, there ceased to be any growth. And when I've reached my limit, that's it. It's sad to lose this business, but hopefully we can remain friends.

  3. #113
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    I know. it's as if the others are stuck in a week old newspaper or something.
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  4. #114
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Heart: I wasn't speaking about you specifically, sorry if you got that impression.
    Thanks, it was hard to tell.

    Again, maybe it's just your (not you specifically) perception - your own knee jerk reaction, which is why I made the point about my business partner who does the same. But what I've learned over the years is that when communication breaks down, it is usually the fault of both parties.

    When your guns are blazing in your end of the debate, are you speaking factually or emotionally? I can tell you that in the infidelity thread, for instance, I got annoyed when people responded to my points about disloyalty and dishonesty with "well, your stance ensures that you will be cheated on."
    I only saw one person say something like that and it was a thinker. So I am not sure it adds any clarity to the current discussion.


    Maybe male thinkers tiptoe around women more? I see them tear each other to shreds often, so maybe it's the kid glove treatment?
    I am not just talking about what happens to me as a poster but what I observe other people doing in their interactions as well.

    Somehow I am not getting my point accross. It is not about when a thinker lashes into me but a thinker accuses me of having some sort of nefarious agenda or if a thinker suddenly becomes personally upset in a debate they were engaging in just fine up until that point.

  5. #115
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I only saw one person say something like that and it was a thinker. So I am not sure it adds any clarity to the current discussion.
    The point isn't that a T or F said it, my point is that this is what irritates me - when someone adds their own personal values and judgments to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I am not just talking about what happens to me as a poster but what I observe other people doing in their interactions as well.

    Somehow I am not getting my point accross. It is not about when a thinker lashes into me but a thinker accuses me of having some sort of nefarious agenda or if a thinker suddenly becomes personally upset in a debate they were engaging in just fine up until that point.
    I understand you and you have gotten your point across. I'm trying to explain that it could just be your perception of what personal sensitivity looks like on an NT woman. I'm trying to explain that we are not as sensitive as you might think, but of course, I have no reference point as to what you are trying to illustrate.

    Maybe it would help to reread the posts and see exactly where you felt the NT woman switched over to emotion. Then maybe you can see for yourself if there was a certain phrase or comment that was personal and they responded in kind? I don't know... I wish I could help clear this up for you.

    I know you are tired now, you can write back at any time - it doesn't have to happen now.

  6. #116
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post

    I recently, very unfortunately, ended a profitable relationship with a business partner because she was too damn emotional. I love her to death, but working with her was a nightmare. I was never allowed to say anything, for fear it was a personal attack. The minute she read anything remotely negative by email, she would flip out and come to all sorts of conclusions about what I was trying to say. Well, I never try to say anything - I just say it. She imagined the worst case scenario at every step. If I tell her that next time, she should let me know if a certain supplier has a certain deal, she took that as me saying she was ineffective and inefficient. If I told her that she looks good today, she'll take that as me meaning she didn't look good yesterday. When she would call me and cry, I would explain what I meant. Then later when she calmed down, she would call and apologize because after re-reading, she realized it wasn't actually bad in the first place. This would happen almost on a daily basis. I would rearrange my words for hours on a daily basis before sending her emails, to no avail. No matter what I said or did, her first reaction was offense. We would waste countless hours each day dealing with this. When she had problems with me, she would never tell me, making the problem quadruple in her mind to the point where she was calling Dr. Laura or whoever that radio personality is on a weekly basis. But she never told me - her excuse: she prefers harmony. Well, how harmonious is dishonesty and secret resentments? I ended the partnership last week. She has called me every day since then crying and wondering why it was over. No matter what I say, she won't hear me. She imagines what she believes to be the truth and refuses to face reality. If she asks, and I answer, she will just add her own color to it and go off on tangents. So I have to use stronger words, so she gets it. Then that starts a whole new cycle of tears because I am so mean... She lives in her own fantasy world. And all the hours on the phone doing crisis management, she thinks that was productive and she still can't understand why this stresses me out and makes me want to sever ties with her. Because she refuses to hear me, I must be quite aggressive with my words - so there is no misinterpretation. And this is when the tears start again. I have no patience at this point because I have tried and failed, so the tears seem like a tactic to make me concede or feel bad. This sort of manipulation irritates me to no end. She wouldn't have been hurt if she had just listened in the first place.
    Wow. Jeno - sorry you had to deal with this. Whatever the person's type, hers is clearly a very unhealthy mindset. Also, Dr. Laura, really? Actually I am in SO much shock, I need to add another really? Dr. Laura has such serious mental health issues herself that I wish she would call someone and dive into dealing with her own stuff.

    I find it hard to believe she is an ENFP unless maybe just a really unhealthy one. ENFPs seem to thrive on compliments so taking "you look good today" to imply you looked terrible every other day is really weird. Especially in a work situation where you work closely with someone and the outcome of one person's actions and decisions affects both your work lives, respect and honesty are valuable and desirable. If she didn't understand and respond well to that, she would make a bad business partner for anyone, not just a thinker.

  7. #117
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    Wow. Jeno - sorry you had to deal with this. Whatever the person's type, hers is clearly a very unhealthy mindset. Also, Dr. Laura, really? Actually I am in SO much shock, I need to add another really? Dr. Laura has such serious mental health issues herself that I wish she would call someone and dive into dealing with her own stuff.

    I find it hard to believe she is an ENFP unless maybe just a really unhealthy one. ENFPs seem to thrive on compliments so taking "you look good today" to imply you looked terrible every other day is really weird. Especially in a work situation where you work closely with someone and the outcome of one person's actions and decisions affects both your work lives, respect and honesty are valuable and desirable. If she didn't understand and respond well to that, she would make a bad business partner for anyone, not just a thinker.
    Hahaha, yeah she thrives on compliments and fishes for them constantly. She knows I never flatter people. So when I see her particularly low, I try and find something nice to say. But when I do, she takes it very seriously and wants me to elaborate on and on. I refuse to do so - then her mind starts to wander and think that I must not have thought so yesterday since I didn't say anything then. And so, on it goes...

    And her need for constant reassurance and compliments is what drove us to this point. If she messes up something badly, she thinks that I should at least compliment her for bringing it to my attention, rather than point out how she can handle it differently in the future. My lack of constant positive comments sent her into a tailspin, and she assumed that everything I was saying was a negative critique of her person, rather than her performance. Or that there was an implied judgment. What she didn't get is that we were equal partners, so she could easily just tell me to fuck off and mind my own business. But her whole self worth became about what I thought about her. It was maddening. She just wandered around all the time wondering what I was thinking, wondering what I really meant when I said xyz, wondering how she can get me to "open up"... I never gave a damn about what she thought of me - this is just business - so I'm sure that I failed her sensibilities at times. Like I said, breakdowns are the result of both parties.

    And yes, Dr. Laura. She would keep that woman on the phone for ages.

    EDIT: Or maybe it was Dr. Joy Brown? I don't know - one of those radio people...

  8. #118
    videodrones; questions Verfremdungseffekt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    ENFPs seem to thrive on compliments
    Hm. May explain something. One confirmed ENFP I know seems to fish for a response to everything she does -- even things she's done dozens of times, that I've commented on before. I've come to wonder what exactly she wants from me.

  9. #119
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Then you will see emotions fly, for sure. But I still will keep a clear enough head to coldly and angrily dissect you.
    Isn't that a contradiction?

    What an interesting thread, I'm finding I am relating to a lot of what the NTs are saying, I also seem to have a bit of trouble at times with being completely oblivious as to how I come across, being accused of veiled insults where none was intended. Maybe it is a lack of Fe, cause my Fe sucks. I speak, think and write in short abrupt points which perhaps lacks detail so it's easily misinterpreted.

    The problem I seem to have when discussing/debating with an extraverted thinker is that they seem to think about the world with rigid structures. I can see how their point makes sense within their "logical" framework but if you have a point outside of their box, you have to actually try and breakdown their entire framework to get your point across, and they don't seem to take kindly to that. To have any chance of them understanding you, you have to show it in a very clear, simple and straight line of reasoning (perhaps build your own logical framework, although if there are any weaknesses or inconsistencies no matter how minor or irrelevant they will disregard the entire concept). That doesn't come naturally to me as my thoughts bounce around all over the place, in and out of their framework, yet to me it does not seem irrational as I'm not making judgements, just exploring options.

    My writing is littered with; ifs, maybes, perhaps, mights, coulds, seems and possiblies. This is because I can never feel bold (or arrogant?) enough to think that I know the absolute truth of any matter. The world seems too complex to do so, for me the exception tends to disprove the rule.

    All of this way of thinking seems distasteful to a strong Te user.
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

    Quinlan's Creations

  10. #120
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Hahaha, yeah she thrives on compliments and fishes for them constantly. She knows I never flatter people. So when I see her particularly low, I try and find something nice to say. But when I do, she takes it very seriously and wants me to elaborate on and on. I refuse to do so - then her mind starts to wander and think that I must not have thought so yesterday since I didn't say anything then. And so, on it goes...

    And her need for constant reassurance and compliments is what drove us to this point. If she messes up something badly, she thinks that I should at least compliment her for bringing it to my attention, rather than point out how she can handle it differently in the future. My lack of constant positive comments sent her into a tailspin, and she assumed that everything I was saying was a negative critique of her person, rather than her performance. Or that there was an implied judgment. What she didn't get is that we were equal partners, so she could easily just tell me to fuck off and mind my own business. But her whole self worth became about what I thought about her. It was maddening. She just wandered around all the time wondering what I was thinking, wondering what I really meant when I said xyz, wondering how she can get me to "open up"... I never gave a damn about what she thought of me - this is just business - so I'm sure that I failed her sensibilities at times. Like I said, breakdowns are the result of both parties.
    Ohhh, I have never quite understood why people should want to fish for compliments .. If you put in the hard work and got some good results, why not just pat yourself on your back .. Hmmm. Thinking out loud there.

    I am starting to enjoy this thread now. I do like it when stereotypes are blown out of the water. How liberating.
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
    ― Georgia O'Keeffe

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