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  1. #101
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Where do you draw the line between someone disagreeing with your opinion on their choices and when someone is actually slamming you for being wrong for the way you think (or feel)?

    Then once you've decided they intended to attack your personal values in a debate, how do you decide their continued responses are a true vendetta on your way of life instead of them defending against your charges that they've felt, said or done things in a way that they are trying to explain they haven't?


    A general comment not meant for any one person:

    But really I've pretty much come to the conclusion that thinkers *can be* a real emotional mine field, one cannot know when they are being "logical" or when some random feeling is going to cause them to rephrase what is written or said or to assign motives that aren't there, etc. And there's no talking to them once this happens. With another feeler, when you've stepped on their feelings, one can simply explain and try to move on but some thinkers seem unable to trust other people's feelings and have blind spots about their own. I've been accused of being the devil on here because I disagreed with a thinker's opinion about network news. Everything was rational up to that point and after I trappled on their scared cow there was no reasoning with them.
    I will try to respond in the morning, since I am very tired now. But I just wanted to point out that this irrational feeling behavior that you sometimes notice with "thinkers" is what I almost always notice with "feelers" who have so many sacred cows. It's the walking on egg shells thing that we always talk about. Just something to think about. But I will try to legitimately respond to your questions in the morning. See ya.

  2. #102
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Not "rude" just "sadistic."
    Sadistic is great, i am all for it. I suppose it comes down to where you draw that line in the sand to say 'i have gone to far'. If i don't attach emotions, i could be called a heartless bitch. So i keep them close by so i don't become some tit who is going for the jugular.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    Funnily enough around here it's the NTs that I've found I have to tip toe around, they can get upset easily...

    *tiptoes out of the thread*

    Shock, horrror. I am so surprised by that remark. Yeahhhh your actually human

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Where do you draw the line between someone disagreeing with your opinion on their choices and when someone is actually slamming you for being wrong for the way you think (or feel)?
    ^^^ That is how i was trying to word it. I was slightly going round the issue, so not to offend?


    I have my views, but i am open to new ideas. lol. I am all up for a good debate, i try not to add feelings as then i get to passionate and i just get angry. I do feel however and this is why i tread carefully with yourselves as i worry that anything i say (and i am aware you lot are more knowledgeable than myself) can be turned and twisted to your understanding then it seems like you are deliberately provoking me. Does that make sense???

    I am getting a little more daring on here. Quite proud of myself.

    Just to add - That's the problem i find with the internet. I read body language to determine if i have upset someone, or maybe see if one's tone of voice has increased denoting they are getting frustrated. One here however, you can only interpret someones words to your understanding but be open minded enough to see it from a different perspective. So yeah, maybe that means you walk on eggshells. If someone i felt upset me on here. I would message them and ask them straight out 'Hi, i felt you ripped me a new arse hole' was that your intention? No .. OK then, bye. Simple. lol
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
    ― Georgia O'Keeffe

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by saslou View Post

    I have my views, but i am open to new ideas. lol. I am all up for a good debate, i try not to add feelings as then i get to passionate and i just get angry. I do feel however and this is why i tread carefully with yourselves as i worry that anything i say (and i am aware you lot are more knowledgeable than myself) can be turned and twisted to your understanding then it seems like you are deliberately provoking me. Does that make sense???

    I am getting a little more daring on here. Quite proud of myself.

    Just to add - That's the problem i find with the internet. I read body language to determine if i have upset someone, or maybe see if one's tone of voice has increased denoting they are getting frustrated. One here however, you can only interpret someones words to your understanding but be open minded enough to see it from a different perspective. So yeah, maybe that means you walk on eggshells. If someone i felt upset me on here. I would message them and ask them straight out 'Hi, i felt you ripped me a new arse hole' was that your intention? No .. OK then, bye. Simple. lol
    I think that may be the heart of your problem with the NTJs. We're not provoking you. What looks like provocation to a feeler are "just the facts" to a thinker. I haven't tried to provoke anyone here, but I have gotten into hot water more than a few times with the things I've said. I'm not beyond responding rudely to a snide remark or blatant insult directed at me, but I have yet to post an initial remark on any topic with the intention of provoking someone (except in the most basic philosophical sense of course). I do like provocative topics and conversations, but I certainly don't intend to pick fights. Even in the cases where I see terribly inane comments, my replies are not intended to hurt the poster but to question why they've said what they've said. Questioning someone or pointing out the error in his reasoning is not an insult. I rarely get irritated (and I have yet to get really angry at anyone around here) until someone has made it clear that they're more interested in personal attacks than the topic being discussed. At that point all bets are off, of course, and I will happily trounce on his/her feelings. I never start off with that intention, however.

    This basically comes back to what I was saying about the F tendency to feel emotionally injured in an earlier post. The very sensitive Fs are often certain they understand the T far better than they actually do, and they project their own motivations for behaving a certain way onto the T. They think they "get" the Ts real thought process, but most of the time they are utterly clueless about what it truly is. This is why I, personally, make it a point to avoid engaging in anything but the most superficial exchanges with strong Fs IRL. I can't count on them to hear the reason, because they're just so sure we're all out to rip their hearts out. What they often fail to realize is we just don't care about that. If I'm involved in a debate it's the issue, not the person, that I'm interested in. If the person is going to assume I'm ripping his heart out when I point out how his reason has failed then he's really not worth bothering with. I was not out to get him at the start, but I certainly will be finished with him if he invokes the "%*$@ off!" card at the end. I have no time, patience, or interest in wasting my time on someone who can't hold it together to give proper consideration to the facts at hand. If that makes me a bomb or beast or ripper, fine by me. I have other, reasonable, people I can engage with.

  4. #104
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    The very sensitive Fs are often certain they understand the T far better than they actually do, and they project their own motivations for behaving a certain way onto the T. They think they "get" the Ts real thought process, but most of the time they are utterly clueless about what it truly is.
    And sometimes Ts get so caught up with the need to be right that they continue debating with someone even though they have no interest in listening to the other side and ultimately end up agitated because the other person wants to continue presenting a point of view they consider invalid and dont want to hear. There are different kinds of emotional arguments, those who try to use emotional manipulation and then those who are so sure they're right that they must make the other person admit to being wrong and become frustrated/impatient when they don't, irl the latter seems to be a trait I've noticed often in ENTJs, the most logical of the logical.

    Watching debates irl between an INFJ and ENTJ is very interesting, one would expect the INFJ to get emotional and the ENTJ to be rigid and factual but in my experience its often the other way around, see the ENTJ has usually researched the topic theyre debating and thought it through thoroughly before discussing it with someone else, so when someone presents an idea they consider invalid they must show them how they are wrong, problem is they can become so focused on proving they are right that they become frustrated and that is when their arguments become emotional. The most annoying part of this from an outsiders pov is a T who is arguing from emotion out of a need to be right cannot see that they're doing this because their argument is logical in their head, its the way that theyre presenting it thats emotional.

    This is why I, personally, make it a point to avoid engaging in anything but the most superficial exchanges with strong Fs IRL.
    That seems to be the problem I've seen irl, ENTJs appear to have little interest in hearing a Fs perspective because they don't like the way they engage in a debate, the irony that they become emotional when debating a F because they don't like the 'feelingness' of their argument is rather amusing.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    And sometimes Ts get so caught up with the need to be right that they continue debating with someone even though they have no interest in listening to the other side and ultimately end up agitated because the other person wants to continue presenting a point of view they consider invalid and dont want to hear. There are different kinds of emotional arguments, those who try to use emotional manipulation and then those who are so sure they're right that they must make the other person admit to being wrong and become frustrated/impatient when they don't, irl the latter seems to be a trait I've noticed often in ENTJs, the most logical of the logical.

    Watching debates irl between an INFJ and ENTJ is very interesting, one would expect the INFJ to get emotional and the ENTJ to be rigid and factual but in my experience its often the other way around, see the ENTJ has usually researched the topic theyre debating and thought it through thoroughly before discussing it with someone else, so when someone presents an idea they consider invalid they must show them how they are wrong, problem is they can become so focused on proving they are right that they become frustrated and that is when their arguments become emotional. The most annoying part of this from an outsiders pov is a T who is arguing from emotion out of a need to be right cannot see that they're doing this because their argument is logical in their head, its the way that theyre presenting it thats emotional.



    That seems to be the problem I've seen irl, ENTJs appear to have little interest in hearing a Fs perspective because they don't like the way they engage in a debate, the irony that they become emotional when debating a F because they don't like the 'feelingness' of their argument is rather amusing.
    True that! I certainly have no patience with arguments fueled by a gut response. I don't even trust gut responses that are my own. If someone would like to present a reasoned argument against what I am arguing for, I am not only happy to hear it, but thrilled. You are correct when you say that Ts get frustrated with Fs, but it's not because we want to prove them wrong (at least not in my case, can't speak to the motives of others of my kind). I get frustrated because I want to know where my reasoning has failed, not how the other person feels about a reasonable position that they just don't like. It's easy to assume the entj is just interested in proving others wrong, or proving herself right, but that's generally not the way I operate (again, taking the first person here because I don't know what goes on in the heads of other entjs). If I'm wrong, show me where my logic has failed. I really do want to know, it's in my best interest.

    You're right, we are the most logical of the logical, so it is fairly pointless to try and sway us with feeling. Feeling just doesn't work because it's never "valid", even when the feeling is "right". When a debate partner invokes this so-called line of reasoning it feels like they're being dishonorable, cheating in a sense. It's not that we're set on being right, but we are set on making sure the rules of engagement aren't violated. This is why so many of the logical fallacies have names that refer to flaws in reasoning that are the result of gut responses (...ad hominem, ad baculum, ad populace). If a person isn't going to bother to even try to play by the rules, why should I listen to them? In interpersonal exchanges the case is, obviously, different but I'll consider the feelings of my debate partner when we're trying to figure out where to have dinner.

    I can't comment on the other things you described because I don't bother debating strong Fs in IRL if at all possible. That, of course, is not always possible so occasionally I do get sucked in, but as soon as I get a sense that that's dynamic I've gotten caught in I just drop out of the debate and turn the conversation to something lighter. Some battles are just not worth fighting.

    I just realized the answer to my original question. This all boils down to a difference in priorities. I will consider a person's logic, but her feelings don't much matter to me. The Fs that have a problem with me want me to consider their feelings but don't want to consider the logic of what I'm saying. So, I guess that means we're about even when it comes to consideration. NTs are not any more rude than anyone else.
    Last edited by juggernaut; 05-19-2009 at 12:24 AM.

  6. #106
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Where do you draw the line between someone disagreeing with your opinion on their choices and when someone is actually slamming you for being wrong for the way you think (or feel)?

    Then once you've decided they intended to attack your personal values in a debate, how do you decide their continued responses are a true vendetta on your way of life instead of them defending against your charges that they've felt, said or done things in a way that they are trying to explain they haven't?
    Heart, I'm going to give you an insight into my crazy mind. Maybe others will identify with it, but few will admit it: there is discourse and there is personal attack - the line is pretty severe in my mind. And when I feel attacked, my first response is to strike back. Offense, not defense. So maybe that's where you see emotion. But the truth is, it's all a game to me. 99% of the time, there is nothing you can say or do that will send me into an emotional breakdown. I may get loud if someone is talking over me or pick stronger words for effect, but that is not to be confused with anger. Once the attacks start, it truly becomes a game to see how far I can take it (maybe the oneupmanship that my type is labeled with?) But I don't feel upset, I feel powerful.

    You have to remember, I rarely form opinions, but when I do, they are well researched and substantiated so your argument better be pretty air tight. If you are willing to listen, I am willing to speak. But if you are set in your ways with no sources, just a feeling, I don't want to discuss anything with you and will try to back out of the argument.

    Now that I am getting older, I have learned to cut the crap and speak politely to everyone, no matter how tempted I am to slice them to shreds for what I perceive to be ignorance. When I feel that familiar coldness, I fire a warning shot or two, giving the other person a chance to end this gracefully. This is usually a comment like "ok, let's agree to disagree" or "you do it your way and I'll do it mine, no worries". I do this because I realize that the conversation will never come to a conclusion. We are just repeating the same things over and over and no one is listening to the other. At this point, I'm tired (not angry, not upset). Just tired. And now, because I want this to end, I will go for the jugular - just to get this pest away from me. So I feel that if I concede the point multiple times, offer to back away and say "ok, you've made your point" but you still continue - that's when I feel that it is now your personal vendetta against me, not the argument, and that's when the gloves are off. Some may have a lower tolerance for that nonsense than I do, so maybe that's why you feel it some more than others. But believe me, we are all human and have feelings. Why should I respect yours if you don't respect mine? Especially since mine are so few and far between...

    If someone still pursues the point after this, then I will either give them another chance to back away (usually, on forums, I will send a pm saying that we should both just cool it, no hard feelings). If it still continues, then you will truly know what it looks like when I am upset.

    The only time I truly become upset (that 1%), is not when someone attacks me, but when someone attacks my sisters (loved ones). Then you will see emotions fly, for sure. But I still will keep a clear enough head to coldly and angrily dissect you.

    Quote Originally Posted by saslou View Post


    ^^^ That is how i was trying to word it. I was slightly going round the issue, so not to offend?

    I have my views, but i am open to new ideas. lol. I am all up for a good debate, i try not to add feelings as then i get to passionate and i just get angry. I do feel however and this is why i tread carefully with yourselves as i worry that anything i say (and i am aware you lot are more knowledgeable than myself) can be turned and twisted to your understanding then it seems like you are deliberately provoking me. Does that make sense???

    I am getting a little more daring on here. Quite proud of myself.
    Just the simple fact that you were afraid to post here illustrates my point. You really don't understand that there is no offense in asking a genuine question...

    My body language is pretty consistent and when debating or discoursing, it's better to just ask me if I'm offended, rather than guess. Actually, don't even bother - I'll most likely tell you straight out anyway before you get the chance. I always think it's better to address things right away before any tempers flare. Most times, I'll say "dude, that was a low blow" in which case you should apologize and then we move on and all is forgotten. And it works both ways. If I say something messed up, just bring it to my attention. I would never be upset if someone told me I went too far. I would probably feel really bad for not noticing and apologize profusely. But sadly, I am not always given that chance. People perceive slights from me that were never intended because I speak strongly and I think out loud.

    I recently, very unfortunately, ended a profitable relationship with a business partner because she was too damn emotional. I love her to death, but working with her was a nightmare. I was never allowed to say anything, for fear it was a personal attack. The minute she read anything remotely negative by email, she would flip out and come to all sorts of conclusions about what I was trying to say. Well, I never try to say anything - I just say it. She imagined the worst case scenario at every step. If I tell her that next time, she should let me know if a certain supplier has a certain deal, she took that as me saying she was ineffective and inefficient. If I told her that she looks good today, she'll take that as me meaning she didn't look good yesterday. When she would call me and cry, I would explain what I meant. Then later when she calmed down, she would call and apologize because after re-reading, she realized it wasn't actually bad in the first place. This would happen almost on a daily basis. I would rearrange my words for hours on a daily basis before sending her emails, to no avail. No matter what I said or did, her first reaction was offense. We would waste countless hours each day dealing with this. When she had problems with me, she would never tell me, making the problem quadruple in her mind to the point where she was calling Dr. Laura or whoever that radio personality is on a weekly basis. But she never told me - her excuse: she prefers harmony. Well, how harmonious is dishonesty and secret resentments? I ended the partnership last week. She has called me every day since then crying and wondering why it was over. No matter what I say, she won't hear me. She imagines what she believes to be the truth and refuses to face reality. If she asks, and I answer, she will just add her own color to it and go off on tangents. So I have to use stronger words, so she gets it. Then that starts a whole new cycle of tears because I am so mean... She lives in her own fantasy world. And all the hours on the phone doing crisis management, she thinks that was productive and she still can't understand why this stresses me out and makes me want to sever ties with her. Because she refuses to hear me, I must be quite aggressive with my words - so there is no misinterpretation. And this is when the tears start again. I have no patience at this point because I have tried and failed, so the tears seem like a tactic to make me concede or feel bad. This sort of manipulation irritates me to no end. She wouldn't have been hurt if she had just listened in the first place.


    I think NTJs, in particular, can get caught up with making everything fit into their own box. Maybe it's the Te, I don't know... I don't always feel that they are using logic in their arguments, but force and aggression. Maybe it's my perception, though. It is harder for me to argue with an NTJ in person and would much rather do it by writing, so the words are clear and they have time to think before they speak.

    I know it's not easy to deal with us, but we are not monsters. It's also hard for us to deal with you guys. This is why I'm very happy to have found this forum. No matter what anyone says about MBTI, I've learned quite a bit.

  7. #107
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Well, I never try to say anything - I just say it.
    Learning to tailor it so people don't take offense is a daily challenge. And you have to if you're going to avoid simmering resentment and passive aggression, because direct complaints are bad for preserving the peace. Sometimes it's too energy-consuming so I minimize the odds that I'll have to do it.
    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I think NTJs, in particular, can get caught up with making everything fit into their own box. Maybe it's the Te, I don't know... I don't always feel that they are using logic in their arguments, but force and aggression. Maybe it's my perception, though. It is harder for me to argue with an NTJ in person and would much rather do it by writing, so the words are clear and they have time to think before they speak.
    I've noticed this, too. To me, it looks like they don't really want to get to the bottom/an understanding but rather have a debate that ends in their "winning" their emotionally-driven points. . . . That is the point of the whole exercise.

  8. #108
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    ...I recently, very unfortunately, ended a profitable relationship with a business partner because she was too damn emotional. I love her to death, but working with her was a nightmare. I was never allowed to say anything, for fear it was a personal attack. The minute she read anything remotely negative by email, she would flip out and come to all sorts of conclusions about what I was trying to say. Well, I never try to say anything - I just say it. She imagined the worst case scenario at every step. If I tell her that next time, she should let me know if a certain supplier has a certain deal, she took that as me saying she was ineffective and inefficient. If I told her that she looks good today, she'll take that as me meaning she didn't look good yesterday. When she would call me and cry, I would explain what I meant. Then later when she calmed down, she would call and apologize because after re-reading, she realized it wasn't actually bad in the first place. This would happen almost on a daily basis. I would rearrange my words for hours on a daily basis before sending her emails, to no avail. No matter what I said or did, her first reaction was offense. We would waste countless hours each day dealing with this. When she had problems with me, she would never tell me, making the problem quadruple in her mind to the point where she was calling Dr. Laura or whoever that radio personality is on a weekly basis. But she never told me - her excuse: she prefers harmony. Well, how harmonious is dishonesty and secret resentments? I ended the partnership last week. She has called me every day since then crying and wondering why it was over. No matter what I say, she won't hear me. She imagines what she believes to be the truth and refuses to face reality. If she asks, and I answer, she will just add her own color to it and go off on tangents. So I have to use stronger words, so she gets it. Then that starts a whole new cycle of tears because I am so mean... She lives in her own fantasy world. And all the hours on the phone doing crisis management, she thinks that was productive and she still can't understand why this stresses me out and makes me want to sever ties with her. Because she refuses to hear me, I must be quite aggressive with my words - so there is no misinterpretation. And this is when the tears start again. I have no patience at this point because I have tried and failed, so the tears seem like a tactic to make me concede or feel bad. This sort of manipulation irritates me to no end. She wouldn't have been hurt if she had just listened in the first place.
    Uggh, been in situations like that, they suck -- I have no desire to hurt anyone, but at that stage of things you just cannot win. Everything you do is going to be taken wrongly. Just gotta bail and shut the door as carefully as you can.. although if they keep crying and shoving fingers and feet into the cracks, you eventually have to pound on them, then slam the bolt home before they can push it back open again. Just an ugly ugly mess though.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #109
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    I've got a ISTJ relative where I am constantly on eggshells to make sure I don't venture into any land mines with. I respect and care for this person a lot so it's important to me to maintain good relations but it gets to be so one sided. I have to let so much roll off my back all the while knowing that the least infraction from me will result in her ascribing all kinds of motives to me and her holding a grudge for months. And good grief, listening to her suspicions about the emotional motives for other people that we know, it gets scary. No one is allowed the benefit of the doubt or any slack.

    I am way, way too tired to respond at the moment, but I want to stress something here.

    I am not talking about a thinker being insensitive to me. I am talking about when thinkers get too sensitive themselves during debates and start ascribing underhanded, emotional motives or reading things in that aren't there. Or they start rewording what is said and then won't listen any sort of explanination.

    Another thing that always astounds me is the thinker who wants to come on guns blazing in debates and then gets upset and all personal when the same is given back in return. To me, if you send out those kinds of signals, then you must want to engage on that level.

    I don't see either of these things presented that much in the male thinkers (sometimes it is) but it is far more often with female thinkers.

    Some may have a lower tolerance for that nonsense than I do, so maybe that's why you feel it some more than others. But believe me, we are all human and have feelings. Why should I respect yours if you don't respect mine? Especially since mine are so few and far between...
    I wouldn't go into your blog and start ripping you when you are spilling your guts out, but if you accuse me of having motives or making statements that I haven't made, I will try to correct it. If you make a comment in a debate that I disagree with, I will counter it, unless I find you are truly too sensitive to bear it and then I'll generally ignore you in those times. I don't hold you accountable on here to respect my feelings, I am a grown girl. I am capable of standing up for myself

    I mean you might really tick me off but but next day, we're again just two people posting on a forum. We really don't have an emotional connection, I don't tend develop deep feelings about others from just posting on this board. Some people's behavior perplexes me or irritates me but I don't take it that seriously.

    Sure, there are some people I start chatting with and getting to know better and then things change.

  10. #110
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    Thank you ever so much jenocyde for clearing that up for me.

    The reason i don't feel comfortable in your area is because i know you lot are more smarter/knowledgable than me. I feel inferior. The fact i am here and asking questions is a good move instead of making assumptions and if i can learn something else along the way then all is good.

    I am sorry to hear about your business partner. I am a little surprised though. Jesus, talk about over sensitive. Wow. I personally think my drive to succeed in my business would very much overrule my emotions. There is a time and place for everything. Oh well.

    I do prefer upfront honesty than people expecting me to be a bloody mind reader and i do get that from my ENTP son. He tells me it exactly how it is. It is refreshing. I think my problem is i just had a bad experience with a INTJ, although i am aware me and them are at extremes in the first place but i did see first hand the aggression when he tried to prove a point. Maybe it was my stubbornness.

    I love this site. A year ago i would of said Yes, i am an unhealthy ESFJ .. but it has been a wicked learning curve, so things can only get better.
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
    ― Georgia O'Keeffe

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