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[MBTI General] MBTI and traits

Matt22

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Aug 18, 2007
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31
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Below I've described my understanding of MBTI and the impressions that I've seen each letter associated with (reference):


E/I:
1) Spend majority of time alone vs engaged with others.
2) Talking more vs less
3) Interests are focused outward vs inward
4) Tendency to be center of attention vs staying in background


N/S:
1) Tendency towards creativity vs practicality
2) Interested in ideas vs facts
3) Tendency to daydream
4) Interested in theoretical vs concrete
5) Tendency to think for yourself vs accept the thoughts of others


T/F:
1) Interested in delivering facts vs feelings
2) Ability to separate emotions from logic
3) Ability to recognize that logic is contrived
4) Sensitivity, ability to relate
5) Measure of dominance
6) Tendency to avoid conflict


P/J
1) Open minded ("percieving") vs closeminded ("judging")
2) Prefer to explore vs compile
3) Measure of responsibility
4) Tendency to organize
5) Prefer to contribute/follow/compete with others vs lead others


The point of this post is that all the letters are associated with multiple impressions, and some of those impressions may only be loosely connected. Hence, this can lead to confusion when trying to figure out your own type.
 
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Matt22

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MBTI Type
ENTJ
^ That was just written for me to organize my thoughts. No other point.
 

Matt22

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Aug 18, 2007
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ENTJ
(Below was inspired by what I've seen from looking up GetAltitude.com--don't ask)

I've always wondered where some people get their entrepreneurial spirit from. Despite being moderately interested in the history of companies, I've never really had that desire to form my own. In fact, when I'm at work, I feel a tendency to try please my bosses. I want to make them happy, be proud of my work, and move my way up through the company. It's almost a feeling of wanting to serve.

This of course, conflicts with my J personality of wanting to be in charge. So while I'm standing at my boss' office and eagerly hoping to be led into something cool, I'm also not keeping solid eye contact with him. This is because solid eye contact comes naturally for me when I'm the one directing the conversation. It's wierd to have these contradictory things going on.

And to make things even wierder, I suspect that there are plenty of P's who do have that entrepreneurial spirit. Take Eben Pagan from GetAltitude.com. I'm not going to talk about him, but to me he is like the modern day poster child for entrepreneurs. What's his MBTI type? I've heard that he said it's INTP. And everything that I've seen has screamed to my highly judgemental mind that he is indeed a p.

So, from what I've seen, the tendency to run social interactions may be separate from the tendency to start your own company. And I believe that any time you discuss internal traits, you are bringing up things that can traced back to tribal times. So if the guy who leads social interactions was a guy in charge during ancient times, then who was the guy that wants to start his own company? Did he form his own tribe? Offer everyone else a new tribe to join?

-------------

Sites like this* don't get it completely right, in my opinion. It says that the heart of entrepreneurship is creativity, drive, focus, risks, and collaboration. I have plenty of those qualities, and I'm no entrepreneur. I think a site that does tap into the spirit better is this one.**

*What is Entrepreneurship?
**College Will Kill Your Entrepreneurial Spirit While Simultaneously Turning You into a Worker Bee · Violent Acres

--------------

Maybe the "spirit" is more than just an internal trait. It might be a product of environment as well. I'm under the impression that people who are poor as kids tend to be become more ambitious to make money. But Bill Gates came from a wealthy family.
 
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Matt22

New member
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Aug 18, 2007
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31
MBTI Type
ENTJ
The few past days, I've tried to develop a more solid understanding of what dominance is. I wrote a stream-of-thought post and gradually whittled it down to a more focused topic. But in the process, I also whittled away the good introduction that is necessary to hook the audience's attention. So you guys are going to get stuck with just the information. Information based on my impressions...

In this post, I focus on some J's and catalog the different ways that they naturally establish dominance. P's are a different story, in my opinion, and they do their own stuff.

1) Fear. My Dad is a pretty friendly and outgoing guy. He looks after a lot of people, and there's generally a good time to be had when he's around. But he's also very strongwilled and has a temper. And he's not always good at being sensitive to other people's problems. As nice as he tries to be, a part of him gets contemptuous whenever it senses weakness. People immediately recognize these qualities in him (whether they realize it or not), and they automatically stay on their best behavior around him.

2) Aloof. One guy I know at work who's close to my age is another ENTJ. He isn't as strongwilled as my Dad and lacks the deep-seated temper. But he also isn't as friendly. He usually won't acknowledge people's existance unless they come to him. He'll often make fun of his coworkers, call them out, etc. He'll even do it behind their backs. My favorite example was when a coworker, who was about ten years older than him, was leaving his office after a long period of chatting. The coworker said, "don't forget to ______," and the young J responded from inside his office, "don't forget to SHUT UP." The coworker laughed.

3) Interest. One of my friends takes a genuine interest in other people. He works in a job where people can come to him easily, and we all take that opportunity. He still manages to maintain dominance though. He instinctively keeps control of the conversation while we provide the support. I would classify him as an ENFJ, because he doesn't focus on understanding the facts as much as I do (though he was an A student in school). Instead, creating a good feeling while casually discussing stuff is more his thing.

4) P behavior. Another of my friends is both friendly and nice. His advantage is that he's good at talking, especially about himself and things he's interested in. I would normally classify that as P behavior, but I've known him for a long time, and I know that he's a J. Everything about him fits the J description. He's just good at socializing like a P (as long as he's in control, of course).

5) Ball Busting or "Game Playing." I had a J boss who naturally did this as a habit when he was in control. I think he did this to cover up for the fact that he's actually nice on the inside. Game playing, by definition, means calling people out or creating an intense atmosphere in which there is a certain degree of 'play' involved (ie: the player doesn't really mean it, though he may pretend to). I agree that it can be fun, but it can also be tiresome for the recipient.

6) Jokes. One guy I know well at school has a lot of similarities to my Dad. He's very competent, driving, and sharp. Nor does he bust on others unless the situation calls for it. However, he lacks the temper that my Dad has. He's pretty strong-willed, but people just aren't afraid of him. Deep down, he's just another nice guy. So when things get stressful, he turns to making jokes to keep everyone cool. They're often pretty funny too. But like the game-playing, it can be tiresome, and the laughter is more of an automatic response than a genuine one.

7) Energy. I've had a few TJ professors now who are very good at being dramatic and putting a lot of energy into the classroom. In this sense they are playing the role of an F because they are purposely manipulating emotions as well as thoughts. But when they do this, they have a tendency to stray from the focus of the lecture. This is because they are wandering into F territory, which isn't truly their home, but just something that they have a talent for. So when they get into that mode, it takes up all of their attention. We still enjoy it, of course, though we tend to learn less and take fewer notes.

8) Rules. Now I finally get to talk about myself. During high school, I worked as a lifeguard and swim teacher. What I lacked in natural dominance was completely made up for by official authority. People had to respect the rules that I enforced regardless of what they thought of me. This sounds uncool, but in general things ran pretty smoothly. It was an easy position for me to be in, and I saw that most people were fine with rules.

9) Being Right. If I'm in an environment where people are seeking answers, and I make an assertion, people will start challenging me. My best chance of establishing dominance is to have "being exactly correct" on my side. This requires that I be very careful and precise in my statements. It's also essential that I keep a close eye on the conversation and not let it go off on a tangent. This means that I have to avoid the temptation to argue, call out, insert commentary, or be emotional (except under very occasional and appropriate circumstances). This is where my real "fighting" takes place.



Which ways are the most successful? From what I've seen, people truly respond best to number 1). But I'd say that numbers 2) and 5) are the most likely to attract groupies to your door.
 
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Matt22

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Joined
Aug 18, 2007
Messages
31
MBTI Type
ENTJ
MBTI Types


ISTJ 11.6%
ISFJ 13.8%
INTJ 2.1%
INFJ 1.5%
ESTJ 8.7%
ESFJ 12.3%
ENTJ 1.8%
ENFJ 2.5%

ISTP 5.4%
ISFP 8.8%
INTP 3.3%
INFP 4.4%
ESTP 4.3%
ESFP 8.5%
ENTP 3.2%
ENFP 8.1%

Total J's: 54.3%
Total for P's: 46.6%

I have a hard time believing this ratio of J's to P's. I have lived my whole life amongst P's. I can practically count the number the J's I've come across. Why do you think I was able to describe all those J's in my previous post? Because they were so distinctive that I remembered them. Saying that there are more J's than P's is like saying there are more leaders than followers. Very, very untrue.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
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594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I have a hard time believing this ratio of J's to P's. I have lived my whole life amongst P's. I can practically count the number the J's I've come across. Why do you think I was able to describe all those J's in my previous post? Because they were so distinctive that I remembered them. Saying that there are more J's than P's is like saying there are more leaders than followers. Very, very untrue.

I think since we're talking about a very large sample of here, it's easy to get caught in unevenly distributed pockets. I don't doubt that your experience is true, but you can't extrapolate from a non-representative sample. Our social circles are not evenly distributed.

As an analogy, I recently read that 20-25% of the Republican voter base is evangelical Christian... but if I used your logic I wouldn't believe it, because where I have lived for almost my entire life (the center and eastern parts of Pennsylvania), I would swear that 60-80% of the people I know are evangelical or conservative Christians, and the same percentages would be Republican. So if I used inductive reasoning, I would be very very wrong here -- as the facts bear out.
 

Matt22

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Aug 18, 2007
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ENTJ
That's a good point. And my experiences may be biased by age as well. Looking through the test, something that I noticed is that all of the P/J questions emphasized responsibility, planning, and decision making. As people get older, have families, and take on more responsibility, I wouldn't be surprised if far more people test J than they would have when they were younger.
 

The_Liquid_Laser

Glowy Goopy Goodness
Joined
Jul 11, 2007
Messages
3,376
MBTI Type
ENTP
(Below was inspired by what I've seen from looking up GetAltitude.com--don't ask)

I've always wondered where some people get their entrepreneurial spirit from. Despite being moderately interested in the history of companies, I've never really had that desire to form my own. In fact, when I'm at work, I feel a tendency to try please my bosses. I want to make them happy, be proud of my work, and move my way up through the company. It's almost a feeling of wanting to serve.

This of course, conflicts with my J personality of wanting to be in charge. So while I'm standing at my boss' office and eagerly hoping to be led into something cool, I'm also not keeping solid eye contact with him. This is because solid eye contact comes naturally for me when I'm the one directing the conversation. It's wierd to have these contradictory things going on.

And to make things even wierder, I suspect that there are plenty of P's who do have that entrepreneurial spirit. Take Eben Pagan from GetAltitude.com. I'm not going to talk about him, but to me he is like the modern day poster child for entrepreneurs. What's his MBTI type? I've heard that he said it's INTP. And everything that I've seen has screamed to my highly judgemental mind that he is indeed a p.

So, from what I've seen, the tendency to run social interactions may be separate from the tendency to start your own company. And I believe that any time you discuss internal traits, you are bringing up things that can traced back to tribal times. So if the guy who leads social interactions was a guy in charge during ancient times, then who was the guy that wants to start his own company? Did he form his own tribe? Offer everyone else a new tribe to join?

Heh, I find this to be both enlightening and humorous. For me the most interesting part easily is starting up the company from scratch. That is where the challenge is. I'm afraid that once the business got to the profitable stage I'd find it boring and tedious. :) I don't mind being in charge of people though, but unlike an ENTJ I don't strongly desire to be in charge either.

What I don't really care for is being part of a highly structed organization. There are lots of expectations that I don't want to conform toward. Right now I work for a corporation, but I'm already thinking of possible future business ventures. Mostly likely I'll work for my company for several years until I get the certification that I'm after, and then either work freelance or start a small consulting firm.
 

Matt22

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Aug 18, 2007
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ENTJ
Close-mindedness

J's are, by definition, judgemental. They have a reputation of acting before thinking, making quick (and firm) decisions, and being close-minded.

For me, I think that the reputation is at least partly false. I'm always questioning my own statements and decisions. I look to other people's input and my own experiences for things that contradict my assertions. I'm wrong so much of the time that I need to be open-minded out of necessity.

But even so, it's possible that I might be close-minded in a different way. For example, even though I'm hardwired to be interested in science, I don't really like reading scientific articles. It's one of those things that should be interesting, but when I get down to it, I suddenly find myself losing interest.

Why am I like that? I guess it might be because I can't make judgements while I'm reading it. If I have no expertise on the subject, then I have to sort of just accept everything that the author says. I guess making judgements is sort of like candy for my brain.

(so in conclusion, I guess you can say that I have a tendency to be close-minded to new information that I can't evaluate)
 

Matt22

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Aug 18, 2007
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ENTJ
I would say that my most dominant function is Ni. Not because I'm an introvert by nature, but because it's a habit. After that would be Es followed by the others.

So getting out of my last class on a Friday midday, I felt the usual pang of joy. I was in Es mode, and Ni was the last thing I'd want to be doing. But as I walked home alone, Ni stopped sounding like such a bad idea. So here I am.
 

Matt22

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Attentional wiring

From what I've seen, most people feel drawn to focus their attention on those who are more dominant than them or of a higher status. In order not to appear submissive, they will focus on themselves or challenge those above them.

Emotional wiring

From what I've seen, some people feel drawn to match their energy to those who are more dominant than them or of a higher status. In order not to appear submissive, they will focus on their own energy or show emotional aloofness to those above them.


I do not have the first issue, but I do have the second. I can't help it either, at least not easily. So I would say that I have good "attentional responsibility," but poor "emotional responsibility." You do not want to leave me in charge of the emotions of the group.

If I'm not "emotionally responsible," does that make me an F? But the thing is that I'm not really about feelings, I'm more about understanding the facts. So it depends on how you define T/F.
 

Matt22

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ENTJ
My previous post isn't quite right. I wasn't able to clearly explain what was lodged in my subconscious, because I didn't fully understand the concept. But now I do.

In the underground internet dating communities, there is a lot of talk about being an "alpha male" when it comes to attracting women. I thought they were wrong, because I saw myself as an alpha male, and I don't attract women. I mean, I'm a J--I socialize downward, seek responsibility, look for opportunities to lead. I can not truly feel comfortable when I'm just going with the flow, or following.

So what's the problem? The problem is how I respond when I'm in an uncomfortable position. What truly separates me from guys who are good at attracting women (whether it be J's or P's) is how I respond: instead of taking charge, I will either complain, suck it up, or go into my head.

Nearly all of my life experiences support this. There are videos of me as a toddler doing this. I'm wired this way, and I cannot change my behavior without fighting this wiring. I may consider myself as an "alpha male" when it comes to other people, but I am very much a "beta male" when it comes to my environment.

But if you were to take any guy who is truly good at creating sexual tension with women (and I'm not talking about "Mystery" or "David DeAngelo," I'm talking about J's like my Dad, Tucker Max, etc. And P's like the crazy kids you all know at your school.), you see that these guys instinctively take charge when they are placed in an uncomfortable position. Like Tucker Max said in his book, "When I am bored or unhappy, my behavior becomes akin to a crack-addled ADD monkey until I find something to occupy me." That may not be the best quote to support my argument, but you get the idea.

And women really look for this. How you respond when you're in an non-ideal environment determines everything. It's easy to act all cool online, because you're in the comfort of your own home. But how do you act when you're waiting for something with other people? What about when you order food or pay at a cash register. What about when you have to do something you don't want to? The examples are endless. This is where some people like my Dad really shine, and others like myself just suck it up or leave.

The good news is that when I'm in an uncomfortable position and I soldier it out to the end, I become good marriage material. This is how I got girlfriends during the second half of high school. I was miserable during the first two years, and then when things finally started coming together during the last two years, I suddenly found myself doing a little bit better with women. But their interest was never at all sexual. I only ended up dating girls who were looking for a relationship and were okay with just having a guy as a status symbol.

But way more interesting than me are guys who DO assert themselves in their environment and still fail. Take Officer Farve (sp?) on Super Troopers. He's a total disaster in the movie. He's the butt off all the jokes. But I would consider him both a J and assertive in his environment. So what's the problem? Well, he's also douche bag. He can't see past the end of his nose for more than like five seconds, and he's totally out of touch with the other characters. He is pretty funny, admittedly. But you also have be in touch with other people if you want to get respect from men and attraction from women. If you are in touch, and you take control of your environment, then almost nothing else matters. It doesn't matter if you're J, P, nice, or a jerk. Though from what I've seen, guys who are very good at "taking control of a non-ideal environment" tend to be less empathetic and understanding than guys who are at my end of the spectrum.
 

Matt22

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Aug 18, 2007
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ENTJ
I think there are two kinds of people in the world:

1) People who believe humans are by definition above animals, and they feel pride in supressing animal instincts. May or may not be religious.

2) People who believe that humans are basically animals, and should follow what are genes program us to do. Our beyond-animal achievements are basically a subset of our genetic wiring, similar to ants. Temporarily suppressing animalistic behavior for the good of the colony is a subset of our genetic wiring.

I started out thinking that the truth lies somewhere between 1) and 2). But as I wrote 2), I liked it more and more.
 

Metamorphosis

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May 9, 2007
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INTJ
Your wiring and dominance posts are really interesting. I've thought about that kind of thing a lot in the past. I tend to think of professional and social dominance as seperate things, though. Some people are very effective and controlling when they are trying to get things done, but totally clam up when it comes to social situations. The reverse is also true.

just something to think about
 

htb

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May 14, 2007
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What I lacked in natural dominance was completely made up for by official authority. People had to respect the rules that I enforced regardless of what they thought of me. This sounds uncool, but in general things ran pretty smoothly. It was an easy position for me to be in, and I saw that most people were fine with rules.
I was in a similar situation. A commission I am on conducted an entry-level examination for patrol officer applicants. The then-chairman asked me, as she had before, to address the nearly two hundred anxious twentysomethings seated in the hall. Projecting my voice, I called attention.

I was amazed at how quickly the room went silent, and how rapt the attention of the applicants was. My address was short, but it was effective. By the end of the test, applicant upon applicant, passing me while leaving the building, referred to me as "sir."

The sense of authority was incredible, and wonderful.
 

Metamorphosis

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May 9, 2007
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INTJ
I was in a similar situation. A commission I am on conducted an entry-level examination for patrol officer applicants. The then-chairman asked me, as she had before, to address the nearly two hundred anxious twentysomethings seated in the hall. Projecting my voice, I called attention.

I was amazed at how quickly the room went silent, and how rapt the attention of the applicants was. My address was short, but it was effective. By the end of the test, applicant upon applicant, passing me while leaving the building, referred to me as "sir."

The sense of authority was incredible, and wonderful.

I think we are inherently more comfortable when we are in control. It's when we care the least what people think about us and just do whatever the hell we want.

...and sorry for hijacking your thread...
 
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