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  1. #1
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    Post Do you see the logic behind everything?

    I was reading an really historical novel, the romance of three kingdoms.
    The smartest strategist there was a person named zhuge liang (INTJ) and his nemesis zhou Yu (ENTJ). The plotting and intrigue behind it is almost lengendary, the strategist can predict what another person is thinking and what he or she is going to do. I really fail to see the logic behind the novel, of how someone can "know" and predict what someone else is thinking, despite a thousand variables that can go wrong.

    Do some NTs have this kind of ability?Can an NT always see the logic and come up with an explanation behind everything?
    The fear of poverty turns people into slaves of money.

    "In this Caesar there are many Mariuses"~Sulla

    Conquer your inner demons first before you conquer the world.

  2. #2
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    you made me think about what the difference is, between theory of mind and strategic mind.

    theory of mind is about character. a character has needs, but more importantly he has unique glasses, that make him interpret what is happening and how one should deal with this according to his value system.

    in contrast, theory of strategy is not based on the subjective character of a person, but the 'character' of his objective set-up. maybe the character of his political image. how his local power structure requires him to be a certain character. but more than that: what concrete things he knows about, and what concrete needs he has and what options he can see from where he stands, and which options he will rank with the most priority.

    I (being NF) am pretty good at theory of mind, and probably rather bad at such theory of strategy....

    for the same reason that i am much better at knowing my own style of motivation and subjective interpretation, than at knowing my objective real world resources and options and time windows (possibly NT?).

    don't know if that helps with the thread. don't know what that novel is about:
    personal character of the antagonist or the character of his set up.

    for both styles of divination, it helps to see how a character is mirrored in the local surrounding that he creates for himself, and how he is defined by his own reflection in this structure. such a mirror dynamic exists for a private person in a group, just like it exists for a leader, who is caught in his power structure, or an army that is caught in it's skills and powers. to easily see that mirroring can make a whole party (or army) appear as something personalized with a character. then the virtual entity gets evoked by the intuitive eye.

    so i am saying, that hard LOGIC about what concrete options could be visible to the opponent is one thing (maybe T?), but that mirroring is in my understanding not logic, but intuition, maybe explicitly introverted intuition.

  3. #3
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloud View Post
    Do some NTs have this kind of ability?
    Yes.

    Can an NT always see the logic[...]
    No.

    [...] and come up with an explanation behind everything?
    Yes.


    The different answers are accommodated by observing that it is Ni/Te. Not Ti.

    As a Mastermind, I don't see the logic per se. But I see where a bunch of actions and things are going to go, and if I have to, I make up an explanation to suit it. The explanation part is colourful and interesting, but somewhat beside the point. I would rather bend spoons with my mind.

    See, Ni focused by Te (plus a bunch of real world experiences) is like a giant library of what is real and what can be real. Discovering what's going to happen next is as easy as knowing the meaning of what is happening now. And the whole thing is considerably simplified if I'm involved in what is happening and shaping it.

    Oddball fact, however: the future plays out in it's own way: even if it was seen, still the actual event is full of nuance, and this is interesting in and of itself (if it's novel). That's why we do sometimes come out of our rooms to see what's going on.

    And I'll tell you what gets to be insanely tiresome too. Most people don't have this ability, so they believe we don't have it either, and it gets to be that people don't listen much.

    Lastly, probably the biggest variable in future events are people and what they will choose to do. This is why INFJs are the better seers. They're the mind readers. We're the Chicken Littles.


    This message was brought to you by Hubris and Pride-Fall Inc. Watching your back and looking down your front since 1902.

  4. #4
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post


    The different answers are accommodated by observing that it is Ni/Te. Not Ti.

    As a Mastermind, I don't see the logic per se. But I see where a bunch of actions and things are going to go, and if I have to, I make up an explanation to suit it. The explanation part is colourful and interesting, but somewhat beside the point. I would rather bend spoons with my mind.

    See, Ni focused by Te (plus a bunch of real world experiences) is like a giant library of what is real and what can be real. Discovering what's going to happen next is as easy as knowing the meaning of what is happening now. And the whole thing is considerably simplified if I'm involved in what is happening and shaping it.

    Oddball fact, however: the future plays out in it's own way: even if it was seen, still the actual event is full of nuance, and this is interesting in and of itself (if it's novel). That's why we do sometimes come out of our rooms to see what's going on.

    And I'll tell you what gets to be insanely tiresome too. Most people don't have this ability, so they believe we don't have it either, and it gets to be that people don't listen much.

    Lastly, probably the biggest variable in future events are people and what they will choose to do. This is why INFJs are the better seers. They're the mind readers. We're the Chicken Littles.


    This message was brought to you by Hubris and Pride-Fall Inc. Watching your back and looking down your front since 1902.
    Well I can see how reality build up to the future, but it is just one of the many possibilities i see.

    I presume INTJs can predict what other people are thinking and their reactions and fill it into their masterplan. Thats what makes them very dangerous.
    The fear of poverty turns people into slaves of money.

    "In this Caesar there are many Mariuses"~Sulla

    Conquer your inner demons first before you conquer the world.

  5. #5
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloud View Post
    Well I can see how reality build up to the future, but it is just one of the many possibilities i see.
    You are beset by doubt, poor fellow. Ne must be a curse.

    I presume INTJs can predict what other people are thinking and their reactions and fill it into their masterplan. Thats what makes them very dangerous.
    Nup. That's the INFJs. They are the Devil's Legion. INTJs are cute and cuddly. We are sweet and innocent and have gooey centers. We just want to be loved. That whole thing about "I'll cut you if you touch me again"... just playing hard to get.

  6. #6
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    You can apply logic to any given situation and moreso nearly every given situation follows a coherent logic. If one can see it always is another story. And if it is the best choice to act logically is another story.

    There is for example the story about the roboter doctor, who has to treat two patients, which are in the exakt same condition and about to die in the next 2 minutes. He can only save one, how can he decide who lives and who dies ?
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  7. #7
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Oftentimes, I can "predict" what's going to happen next because I observe people and see their patterns. (Ne). At that point, I make a decision on what I'm going to do with this information (Ti).

    I don't assume to know what someone is thinking or feeling, and I often don't care. What matters more to me are actions. And yes, I can often predict those (although I take the variables into consideration and predict several outcomes, even if one stands out as being more viable).

  8. #8
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    But TeNi is different from Neti I presume.

    It is impossible to describe Ne. the only word I have for it is google.

    I never think in terms of concrete logic, that is TeTi.
    what i think is does not have to be logical, but more per se I bend logic (very much like spoon bending) to see how far i can think.

    What produces reality also produces the future. I really don't have to do anything, the future will come smashing on my face. That is Ne atitude.
    The fear of poverty turns people into slaves of money.

    "In this Caesar there are many Mariuses"~Sulla

    Conquer your inner demons first before you conquer the world.

  9. #9
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Ne in my opinion has nothing to do with logic. Its a way you perceive the world.

    I think the general concept of overkill concerning thinking, applies especially to many people dealing with the MBTI test. To see the logic behind everything, is nothing but a causality line, which leads from the primordial (b)ooze until today.

    The perception of things, on the other hand, works no way. It just is not rational. Its a thing, one only acts on subconciously. If for example, all 4 functions were rational, why is it then that some personalities could never become a completly other personality ? One for example could train Fe, its pretty easy if you know ettiquette and the knack for good behaviour in society. But one, could in no way achieve a faculty that he is not capable of.

    I myself am a very adaptable and to many thinking or feeling patterns empathic person. But there are a few select people, I always failed to understand. Beyond the grave communication problems I have with them, we nearly everytime have assesed a given situation completly different.

    What I wanted to say, there is a logic behind every human act. It's causality. But N or S have nothing to do with that, in my opinion.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  10. #10
    / nonsequitur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloud View Post
    I was reading an really historical novel, the romance of three kingdoms.
    The smartest strategist there was a person named zhuge liang (INTJ) and his nemesis zhou Yu (ENTJ). The plotting and intrigue behind it is almost lengendary, the strategist can predict what another person is thinking and what he or she is going to do. I really fail to see the logic behind the novel, of how someone can "know" and predict what someone else is thinking, despite a thousand variables that can go wrong.

    Do some NTs have this kind of ability?Can an NT always see the logic and come up with an explanation behind everything?
    I had to read it (and the other 3 classics) in school. I remember enjoying the logic and war games, but being confused at the number of characters and how disperse the plot was.

    I have the ability to predict (more or less) how someone whom I have known for some time will respond to any given situation. My father (IXTJ) is the same way. It's when I'm surprised that a person becomes interesting. Most people aren't that complicated. Once you figure out their values (and corresponding weaknesses), they're easy to read and are predictable. This ability is not as rare as you think.

    It's a lot easier if the other person is a thinker, too. As an INTJ, I often "intuit" a person's general perspective, and how he/she makes decisions. This "intuition" is a general coherent picture formed by various bits of information that I've received through my interactions with them.

    I can also build up/break down a person, weaknesses and all, substantiated using various bits of information and what I extrapolate from that to a general personality. It's rude and invasive, however, and (IMHO) a skill that can only be used to hurt.

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