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  1. #21
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I'm usually pretty good with predictions and broad strategy.

    The thing, though, is that you have to stay engaged. You can't just make a detailed prediction early on and then stick with it, you constantly have to be calibrating it with new info and changing your understanding of the picture (or keeping up with the current data map).

    I've found sometimes that my emotions will throw me off... or fear caused by an awareness of possibilities (sort of like a trapeze artist who might suddenly be scared of falling if she starts thinking about the drop and everything that could go wrong, and thus mess up). But usually my rationalization of the situation was accurate in the long-term, people ended up with a pretty close response to what I expected. I'm learning to just trust my insight and not let the short-term fears throw me off.

    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    Never. In my world, everything is irrational. The metaphysical concept of being. Not logic, F logic, it's such an assumption.
    F is not an irrational function.

    It operates from a very subjective view of the world (i.e., your own value ruleset), but it's not irrational -- the logic follows from your foundational assumptions, you simply have to communicate the ruleset in order for people to follow you, rather than the T approach where the ruleset can more easily be discerned just by observation of the world.

    S and N are the irrational functions.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #22
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloud View Post

    Do some NTs have this kind of ability?Can an NT always see the logic and come up with an explanation behind everything?
    Yeah I think so, a lot of us do. But it's like being bloody Cassandra. No fucker listens to you, and they do as they please anyway, and yet you just can't help yourself sometimes from TRYING to sort things out, resulting only in frustration and pain for you because no one else can see what you can see, on account of which they all just think you're "being difficult" or "being unsympathetic" or whatever. It's a blessing when dealing with your own affairs, but a curse when dealing with other people.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  3. #23
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    From an ENTP profile:

    With the exception of their ENFP cousin, the ENTP has a deeper understanding of their environment than any of the other types.
    But what's the point of that if nobody believes you? Few things are more frustrating than watching people on a collision course, knowing it's happening and how to prevent it, but having to sit back and watch because nobody listens to you. Their sight is too short for them to even imagine that you might be right. And you're not not even allowed to say "I told you so" when you're proven right. And even if you do, no matter how many times you're proven right, they still don't listen to you next time.

    Sorry, I'm in a "people suck" mood today
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  4. #24
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloud View Post

    Do some NTs have this kind of ability?Can an NT always see the logic and come up with an explanation behind everything?
    I can see if the logical process has been contradicted or not. It's quite jarring to me, and not something that I do consciously, such that if I read something, or someone is speaking, and there's a logical contradiction - it's like a siren going off in my head. It's very evident to me. When I was young, this would lead to frustration, esp when adults would give an explanation to something, and *it just didn't add up*. That's when a lot of my behaviour problems would arise as I would be rude and rebellious (because they'd lose some respect/credibility in my eyes and I'd be wary/suspicious of them, then). As I grew older though, I've learned to control IT rather than IT control me, such that I even like playing games where you find the wackiest way to contradict a logical statement. Engage in Ne+Fe fun rather than Ne+Ti dryness. And, I learned that the world didn't owe it to *me* to always be logical, so to take my expectations and shove it.

    Although, I can find connections in pretty much everything, and there's always some thread of A leading to B to C, if you press me for an explanation. And, I can also predict, to a degree, the thought process that another went through to reach the conclusion they did - which has helped me control my frustrations. I can't explain it any clearer than words as kernels of ideas, and numbers as their values...somehow float in my head, and arrange "on their own" in ways of patterns. It's like being dragged by this force towards some obscure path, which, somehow, leads to a justified answer. If you ask me what prompted me to take that route, what triggered it, i.e., explain my thought process, I'm quite as lost as the audience. E.g., If I speak out loud as my mind is thinking, I am no more ahead in steps than what the 'audience' is seeing, as I'm along for the ride as well and have no idea where it's taking me (and the audience) until it reaches. I don't have much control of how I go about doing this, except my conscious control comes to clean up the rough edges a bit and arrange in a clear way for *others* (and myself) to (better) understand (fill in some holes that were the results of leaps).

    One way I've found to get out of this loop is engaging in creative writing. It has freed me a lot and ebbed my frustrations. This way, I can appreciate a lot more things in life, rather than the frustration taking over with whatever is "off" in that thing, first and foremost.

  5. #25
    Senior Member BlahBlahNounBlah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloud View Post
    ... Can an NT always see the logic and come up with an explanation behind everything?

    I can't. The best I can do is come up with possibilities. I'd never ever ever say I can explain everything. I can't even explain a single thing with 100% certainty.

  6. #26
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    I'll try to take a stab at this.

    When assesing a situation there are many elements that come into play. The more one can trace possibility the better understanding they will have of the situation, if and only if, they are able to view things from an objective and logical manner.

    So you enter into a situation and can asses the situation for what is current and present, then you can trace through the causes and effects. Once the situation is established you can then view matters of interpretation. How can each component be interpreted. Once you gain that knowledge you can take into account the subject matter and view which interpretations are most likely to occure as well as the possibilities each of the possible interepretations could lead to from that point on.

    So basically what you are left with is a good idea of all the possible outcomes. The more accurate your knowledge the more it can sway logic, which is more than just concrete imo, to one side of probability. At best it is an understanding of all possible outcomes, and a good idea of which one will most likely play out.

    I was also thinking about how much physics, logic, plays a part in how people make decisions recently. If you take into account forces, energy, motion and what not, you can see that while we appear to be chosing, mostly everything, even cognitive things, are governed by the same patterns and rules of physics.

    If this does lead, not to different interpretation but to more absolution in it, it makes me scared to learn about it as, by the laws of physics, I would then start thinking of myself as the Master of the Universe. I think keeping an idea of doubt leads to more understanding of logic, which leads to......shit.

    Does that answer your question?

  7. #27
    ThatGirl
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    Honest to god, no sooner do I write the above post than I realized, I locked my keys in my car....again

  8. #28
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm usually pretty good with predictions and broad strategy.

    The thing, though, is that you have to stay engaged. You can't just make a detailed prediction early on and then stick with it, you constantly have to be calibrating it with new info and changing your understanding of the picture (or keeping up with the current data map).

    I've found sometimes that my emotions will throw me off... or fear caused by an awareness of possibilities (sort of like a trapeze artist who might suddenly be scared of falling if she starts thinking about the drop and everything that could go wrong, and thus mess up). But usually my rationalization of the situation was accurate in the long-term, people ended up with a pretty close response to what I expected. I'm learning to just trust my insight and not let the short-term fears throw me off.



    F is not an irrational function.

    It operates from a very subjective view of the world (i.e., your own value ruleset), but it's not irrational -- the logic follows from your foundational assumptions, you simply have to communicate the ruleset in order for people to follow you, rather than the T approach where the ruleset can more easily be discerned just by observation of the world.

    S and N are the irrational functions.
    Agreed. I used 'F' as a representation of F***, which I didn't want to say.

    But this did enlighten me, I hadn't thought about it that way.
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

  9. #29
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    ITA...why some jerk that comes in at the last minute takes what we were
    trying to say or do and makes it work for them then gets the credit and w-
    e're left standing there being talked down to and patronized. We end up
    being the Elphabas, Chicken Littles and all those other characters that per-
    cieves things around them others don't because we happened to be in the
    wrong place at the wrong time...well it was the right place but wrong in the
    sense that no one else believed it. The thing that always got me in trouble
    was I was always good at catching flaws in the social systems or when op-
    portunities and skills tended to be judged on who ran around with who and
    how likely people were to be passive, smile and do what they were told (wh-
    en someone is looking, that is) and of course I knew how ludicris it all sou-
    nded so I couldn't say anything and had to take matters into my own hands
    a few times. the logic of life is sometimes just getting a little too close to
    the truth someone doesn't think everyone else could handle is all it takes
    to make someone else want to bury you. (god that sounds a little crack-pot
    ish, shudder.)

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