• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[ENTJ] ENTJs & Academia

Ezra

Luctor et emergo
Joined
Dec 12, 2007
Messages
534
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
8w7
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I find I have little time or patience for impractical pursuits. The problem is, I've already embarked on a three-year Philosophy degree, and I'm over half way through it.

How do other ENTJs feel about this? What are your own experiences as an ENTJ? (I was considering asking all NTJs, but then I thought that INTJs are stereotypically academic individuals.)
 

substitute

New member
Joined
May 27, 2007
Messages
4,601
MBTI Type
ENTP
Just a quick brainstorm here of all the things that occurred to me when I read the OP:

My ENTJ's and the ENTJ part of me, tend to want to just extract the useful information from something and then go and use it in the outside world. Formal, institutional academia (specially in the UK) seems more focused quite often on just learning for the sake of hoarding knowledge, and then just using that to pass exams, to get certificates and be admired as a clever person. These things tend to be of little concern to the ENTJ, who just wants to take action and doesn't care whether some obscure examiner far away in another building "certifies" him or her as knowing this, that or the other.

I think the phrase "knowledge is power" means quite different things to the ENTJ than to say, the INTx. To the former, it means "power to make things happen out there", whilst to the latter it seems to mean more like "power to understand what happens out there, so it doesn't hurt me". The difference between innately self-preservational and pro-active temperaments, perhaps.

The ENTJ would rather be known by their deeds and actions and achievements in the outside world, whilst the INTx wants to be known for their mental abilities and insight.

Just some ideas there...
 

Lacey

New member
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
392
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
My college roommate is ENTJ. She's a theatre major. They have classes, obviously, but most of her learning comes from her experiences while stage managing and directing. She completely kicks ass at this stuff. She's awesome! She's also an English major, but she complains about it A LOT. I think the only time she likes writing is when she's writing scripts, which actually go out into the world because they're meant to be performed.

So, yeah, she's very practical, and she likes to actually DO things. She's told me that actual experience is way more important to her than grades on a paper (which she also kicks ass at anyway).
 

entropie

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 24, 2008
Messages
16,767
MBTI Type
entp
Enneagram
783
I find I have little time or patience for impractical pursuits. The problem is, I've already embarked on a three-year Philosophy degree, and I'm over half way through it.

... :hi:
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
4,310
MBTI Type
INTJ
Speaking as an INTJ with a Philosophy degree, yeah, it got old fairly fast. And it used to be hard work communicating in satisfying ways with all the NTPs.

Practically speaking, I retain to this day an insistence that western philosophy can and should be characterised by its method more than its content. Which is to say, what I got out of Philosophy in the end was a lot of practice at conceptual analysis.

(and a grave, unwarranted disdain for all them NTP nerds just because they used to remember philosopher's names.)

Critical Thinking isn't too harmful to an NTJ. It's a foundation. Philosophy per se can bog us down and lead into losing time. That's how it worked for me.


Resist the urge to take the study to Masters level. Turn the foundation into something else once the three years are done. Actually, starting looking around now for applications might not be a bad thing. The profs won't really appreciate it in the classroom, but it'll help stop the rot in your own brain. Business ethics. Critical Thinking in Management. Corporate Analysis. Stuff like that. or not. I dunno.

Why are you interested in Philosophy anyway?
 

Rangler

New member
Joined
Jan 19, 2009
Messages
319
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
3w8
I'm an Business - Accounting major. In an academic setting I'm mediocre at best. Always have been. But, in real-world environments, I'm usually one of the quickest to excel. I wish I did better academically because I have fear of failure from it.
 

FDG

pathwise dependent
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
5,903
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
7w8
Uhm. I'm in mathematical finance now, and I think I really enjoy writing papers, and the mathematical part of the academic world (something that is quite harder to find in real-world settings). I can excel in either more mathematically-oriented examinations, or whenever I have to write down my own ideas and test them. Of course, though, university requires you to take many courses that are not interesting in the slightest (at least, to me), thus can be quite oppressing. However, I'm sure many of my professors in economics and finance have been ENTJs, and they all held a PhD, thus they made it through academia, thus I conclude that ENTJ might be interested in it.

I think I could have killed myself if I went into philosophy, though.
 

CJ99

Is Willard in Footloose!!
Joined
Jan 5, 2009
Messages
582
MBTI Type
ENTP
Alot of ENTJ seem to hate philosophy!
Can some you tell me why because i applied for Philosophy and Maths over my life long idea of Computer Science and Maths as i thought it would be really interesting and to an exent useful. Is it that interesting as an actual subject of study? rather than an interesting hobby.
 

juggernaut

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 22, 2009
Messages
1,009
^I love the field. It's where I did my first B.A. and where I am doing graduate work. I think teaching is probably the most practical career of all so it was, and continues to be, a perfect fit for me.

When I was younger I read quite a bit of philosophy thinking it was just interesting. I enjoyed it for the mental exercise, but like many people never thought it was something one could channel into a career. I never considered teaching. Today, after running a business for several years and raising three children, I realize it is the most practical thing in the world for a person like me to be doing. Working with young adults who will be going out into the world to do all kinds of other important things, teaching them how to reason their way through decisions and carefully analyze important issues, is the most "useful" thing I could be doing with my time and energy.
 

Heart&Brain

New member
Joined
Mar 29, 2009
Messages
217
MBTI Type
ENFP
ENFP here. I never asked myself what to USE my study for when I started ( I hold a Ph.d. in philosophy, continental style). I just fell instantly in love with the whole idea of studying ideas of all sorts - especially in their interaction with material history. I am able to see something attractive in every field of study (like I can see something attractive in everybody I meet - I'm ENFP, right...). But studying ideas, thinkingstyles, conceptual patterns, (in-)consistencies and critical perspectives is like True Love compared to casual flirts of other studies.

When I started my studies I had expected to meet a lot of interesting people. A lot of unconventional thinkers, intuitives, idealists, I guess.

Uh, was I disappointed! :confused:

Either dull bigots nagging and namedropping or alphamales using the department as just one more boxing ring for showing off, control and win. Lots of petty ego's, defensive fear and closed minds.
Lots of theologically challenged sons of priests, too (WTF is that about?)

Somebody once described his famous philo-prof as "He is good at academia but has a very low IQ". Indeed, often it's either / or.

Moral of the tale: choose your study subject with passion and you'll survive the stupidity of academia.
 

Ezra

Luctor et emergo
Joined
Dec 12, 2007
Messages
534
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
8w7
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Just a quick brainstorm here of all the things that occurred to me when I read the OP:

My ENTJ's and the ENTJ part of me, tend to want to just extract the useful information from something and then go and use it in the outside world. Formal, institutional academia (specially in the UK) seems more focused quite often on just learning for the sake of hoarding knowledge, and then just using that to pass exams, to get certificates and be admired as a clever person. These things tend to be of little concern to the ENTJ, who just wants to take action and doesn't care whether some obscure examiner far away in another building "certifies" him or her as knowing this, that or the other.

I think the phrase "knowledge is power" means quite different things to the ENTJ than to say, the INTx. To the former, it means "power to make things happen out there", whilst to the latter it seems to mean more like "power to understand what happens out there, so it doesn't hurt me". The difference between innately self-preservational and pro-active temperaments, perhaps.

The ENTJ would rather be known by their deeds and actions and achievements in the outside world, whilst the INTx wants to be known for their mental abilities and insight.

Just some ideas there...

Good post. Makes a lot of sense.

Resist the urge to take the study to Masters level. Turn the foundation into something else once the three years are done. Actually, starting looking around now for applications might not be a bad thing. The profs won't really appreciate it in the classroom, but it'll help stop the rot in your own brain. Business ethics. Critical Thinking in Management. Corporate Analysis. Stuff like that. or not. I dunno.

You're preaching to the converted. :D

When I've graduated, I'm doing a law conversion course and qualifying as a solicitor. I may or may not move onto become a barrister once I've earned enough to pay for the kind of risks a barrister must inevitably make in order to succeed in practice.

Why are you interested in Philosophy anyway?

I like political theory and enjoy discussing ethics. I'm more interested in philosophy as related to human beings than about language or the problem of mind or something.
 

gloomy-optimist

New member
Joined
Oct 9, 2008
Messages
305
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w3
My twin's ENTJ. I could see her getting interested in philosophy and all that, but I couldn't imagine her pursuing it. And I hope she doesn't, because I'm pretty sure it'd drive me insane as well.

But yeah; I've noticed that ENTJs tend to, as said, be very practical. Even when she learns "impractical" things, my sister finds a way to apply them to something; she's a writer, so that's not too awfully hard for her. But if it's not applicable, then it gets to the point where, not only is she not interested, she almost hates it. No patience with that stuff whatsoever. It's not really something I think she notices; it's just what she does -- takes a concept and uses it to help her in whatever she needs. If it doesn't fit into her agenda, then it's left behind
 

Allied

New member
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
6
MBTI Type
ENTJ
I'm an ENTJ and I am in college studying BioChemistry/Mathematics. I have lately been getting bogged down with how much random "crap" we are forced to memorize and regurgitate for my science courses. I would have to say that is my preference to learn just what is needed to perform the task at hand or just let me have the physical practice of something until I master it.

I like thinking of Philosophy, but I don't think I would ever study it though. I have to be studying something with a more tangible aspect to it.
 

Frank

New member
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
689
I thought about philosophy my freshman year. This was based on the first course which I doubt is a good representation of the subject. I liked it because the class was encouraged to discuss/debate topics. I got a 99% without any effort. If I would have chosen that course, I was going to go into law as you did.

Don't get me wrong I read a fair amount of philosophy in my teens and early twenties but ,as with most things, once I realized I couldn't really do anything with it, I was moving on. If i'm going to invest time into learning something deeply I want it to at least have some sort of functional use for me. Some philosophy does, but alot didn't appeal in that regard.
 
Joined
Apr 23, 2009
Messages
1,992
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
8w9
Just a quick brainstorm here of all the things that occurred to me when I read the OP:

My ENTJ's and the ENTJ part of me, tend to want to just extract the useful information from something and then go and use it in the outside world. Formal, institutional academia (specially in the UK) seems more focused quite often on just learning for the sake of hoarding knowledge, and then just using that to pass exams, to get certificates and be admired as a clever person. These things tend to be of little concern to the ENTJ, who just wants to take action and doesn't care whether some obscure examiner far away in another building "certifies" him or her as knowing this, that or the other.

I think the phrase "knowledge is power" means quite different things to the ENTJ than to say, the INTx. To the former, it means "power to make things happen out there", whilst to the latter it seems to mean more like "power to understand what happens out there, so it doesn't hurt me". The difference between innately self-preservational and pro-active temperaments, perhaps.

The ENTJ would rather be known by their deeds and actions and achievements in the outside world, whilst the INTx wants to be known for their mental abilities and insight.

Just some ideas there...

Yes, yes and hell yes!
 

Jaguar

Active member
Joined
May 5, 2007
Messages
20,647
Just a quick brainstorm here of all the things that occurred to me when I read the OP:

My ENTJ's and the ENTJ part of me, tend to want to just extract the useful information from something and then go and use it in the outside world. Formal, institutional academia (specially in the UK) seems more focused quite often on just learning for the sake of hoarding knowledge, and then just using that to pass exams, to get certificates and be admired as a clever person. These things tend to be of little concern to the ENTJ, who just wants to take action and doesn't care whether some obscure examiner far away in another building "certifies" him or her as knowing this, that or the other.

I think the phrase "knowledge is power" means quite different things to the ENTJ than to say, the INTx. To the former, it means "power to make things happen out there", whilst to the latter it seems to mean more like "power to understand what happens out there, so it doesn't hurt me". The difference between innately self-preservational and pro-active temperaments, perhaps.

The ENTJ would rather be known by their deeds and actions and achievements in the outside world, whilst the INTx wants to be known for their mental abilities and insight.

Just some ideas there...

Actually I can identify with both.
Certainly not the part about receiving certificates and passing exams.
That nonsense means nothing in the real world. It's an illusion.
Hell, there are MBAs out there pumping gas.


I'm a results guy. Period.
That said, I'm a massive researcher. Over-the-top at times.
I can research all day long, and not realize I never ate and the sun went down. :shock:
I not only apply knowledge in the outer world, but I also use it for self-preservation.

Studying medicine for 12 years is a good example.
Once I begin learning a subject, I never really stop studying it.
 

locus8

New member
Joined
Jul 7, 2009
Messages
26
MBTI Type
INTP
Academia should appeal to ENTJ's due to the focus on research and teaching. Philosophy is very appealing for any N, as one of the criteria of N is to be interested in the abstract.

Would ENTJ's be happy in academia? I think they would if they were able to become a professor. Otherwise, I don't think research would satisfy their need for Extraversion and Judging. They might also get bored with the fact that research is not applied and they are not having a direct effect on their environment.

I'd more likely see the ENTJ as the researcher launching a spin-off based on ideas in fundamental research, rather than the person pursuing research as a life long goal.
 

Jaguar

Active member
Joined
May 5, 2007
Messages
20,647
Would ENTJ's be happy in academia? I think they would if they were able to become a professor. Otherwise, I don't think research would satisfy their need for Extraversion and Judging. They might also get bored with the fact that research is not applied and they are not having a direct effect on their environment.

I'd more likely see the ENTJ as the researcher launching a spin-off based on ideas in fundamental research, rather than the person pursuing research as a life long goal.

Agreed.

Edit: Hey locus, welcome. Just noticed your post count.
 

chegra

New member
Joined
Aug 11, 2008
Messages
132
MBTI Type
INFJ
My own impressions are ENTJ would study it on the side because it is interesting. But as a life long goal, I dont think so.
 

entropie

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 24, 2008
Messages
16,767
MBTI Type
entp
Enneagram
783
I am having my "mood down" period at the moment. The length of my studies till the equivalent of a Master of Science will be around 5 years and I am gonna need around 6 years, so 12 semesters and thats normal in Germany for mechanical engineering.

I have been onto it for 3 years now and having a down at the moment. Normally I wrote around 4-5 exams per semester and was successful in 80+ % of them, but at the moment I tend to sign up for only 1 - 2 exams and tend to chill more in the time between. It have been very taxing 3 years, I had to work / study / do internships and write about 40 exams, cause they reformed our university system and they sucked at it. Now they need to reform the reform and reform the new reform again.

The workload tho wasnt the problem that is only taxing and can prevent you from doing other things; the whole things I learnt, I find quite intresting and in combination with working in a student job in my field besides university, I have heard the challenging call of the business world and want to dig deeper into it now, resulting in me heavily concentrating on my job and neglecting my studies.

We had that lesson lately called "Project Management". Ok that's intresting. But the exams resulted in us having to learn a 500 page long book that came with the lesson and that contained alot of useful stuff but more stuff that was not useful. You had to learn things like basic communication, you maybe have heard of the communication model by Paul Watzlawik that categorizes two people conversing in the "Sender", "the message" and "the receiver". That was like basic knowledge and maybe thats important for some people to learn, so I accepted it. I just didnt understand, why it had to be done via a 500 page long book that relayed so many unecassry information, making your head explode.

I passed the exam with a C+ tho and after it I burnt the book.

I am with substitute alot about his presentation about the british university system, a lot of that counts for the german one aswell.

I nowadays think: in Germany you have the ability to join a Fachhochschule. There you get a Bachelor or Master degree aswell, but in less time, with less information and knowledge and the whole thing is more practical oriented. There you can for example become an engineer, who geographically measures cities and coordinates building projects.

The whole thing there is far less theorethical than at a university and you are finished faster. You only earn less money afterwards and never can become a PhD. But I dont know, fuck the PhD, I think the Fachhochschule would have been the thing for me.
 
Top