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  1. #11
    Luctor et emergo Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Just a quick brainstorm here of all the things that occurred to me when I read the OP:

    My ENTJ's and the ENTJ part of me, tend to want to just extract the useful information from something and then go and use it in the outside world. Formal, institutional academia (specially in the UK) seems more focused quite often on just learning for the sake of hoarding knowledge, and then just using that to pass exams, to get certificates and be admired as a clever person. These things tend to be of little concern to the ENTJ, who just wants to take action and doesn't care whether some obscure examiner far away in another building "certifies" him or her as knowing this, that or the other.

    I think the phrase "knowledge is power" means quite different things to the ENTJ than to say, the INTx. To the former, it means "power to make things happen out there", whilst to the latter it seems to mean more like "power to understand what happens out there, so it doesn't hurt me". The difference between innately self-preservational and pro-active temperaments, perhaps.

    The ENTJ would rather be known by their deeds and actions and achievements in the outside world, whilst the INTx wants to be known for their mental abilities and insight.

    Just some ideas there...
    Good post. Makes a lot of sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Resist the urge to take the study to Masters level. Turn the foundation into something else once the three years are done. Actually, starting looking around now for applications might not be a bad thing. The profs won't really appreciate it in the classroom, but it'll help stop the rot in your own brain. Business ethics. Critical Thinking in Management. Corporate Analysis. Stuff like that. or not. I dunno.
    You're preaching to the converted.

    When I've graduated, I'm doing a law conversion course and qualifying as a solicitor. I may or may not move onto become a barrister once I've earned enough to pay for the kind of risks a barrister must inevitably make in order to succeed in practice.

    Why are you interested in Philosophy anyway?
    I like political theory and enjoy discussing ethics. I'm more interested in philosophy as related to human beings than about language or the problem of mind or something.

  2. #12
    Senior Member gloomy-optimist's Avatar
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    My twin's ENTJ. I could see her getting interested in philosophy and all that, but I couldn't imagine her pursuing it. And I hope she doesn't, because I'm pretty sure it'd drive me insane as well.

    But yeah; I've noticed that ENTJs tend to, as said, be very practical. Even when she learns "impractical" things, my sister finds a way to apply them to something; she's a writer, so that's not too awfully hard for her. But if it's not applicable, then it gets to the point where, not only is she not interested, she almost hates it. No patience with that stuff whatsoever. It's not really something I think she notices; it's just what she does -- takes a concept and uses it to help her in whatever she needs. If it doesn't fit into her agenda, then it's left behind

  3. #13
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    I'm an ENTJ and I am in college studying BioChemistry/Mathematics. I have lately been getting bogged down with how much random "crap" we are forced to memorize and regurgitate for my science courses. I would have to say that is my preference to learn just what is needed to perform the task at hand or just let me have the physical practice of something until I master it.

    I like thinking of Philosophy, but I don't think I would ever study it though. I have to be studying something with a more tangible aspect to it.
    “All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost; the old that is strong does not wither, deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, a light from the shadows shall spring; renewed shall be blade that was broken, the crownless again shall be king.” --J.R.R. Tolkien

  4. #14
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    I thought about philosophy my freshman year. This was based on the first course which I doubt is a good representation of the subject. I liked it because the class was encouraged to discuss/debate topics. I got a 99% without any effort. If I would have chosen that course, I was going to go into law as you did.

    Don't get me wrong I read a fair amount of philosophy in my teens and early twenties but ,as with most things, once I realized I couldn't really do anything with it, I was moving on. If i'm going to invest time into learning something deeply I want it to at least have some sort of functional use for me. Some philosophy does, but alot didn't appeal in that regard.

  5. #15
    Pose! Salt n' pepper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Just a quick brainstorm here of all the things that occurred to me when I read the OP:

    My ENTJ's and the ENTJ part of me, tend to want to just extract the useful information from something and then go and use it in the outside world. Formal, institutional academia (specially in the UK) seems more focused quite often on just learning for the sake of hoarding knowledge, and then just using that to pass exams, to get certificates and be admired as a clever person. These things tend to be of little concern to the ENTJ, who just wants to take action and doesn't care whether some obscure examiner far away in another building "certifies" him or her as knowing this, that or the other.

    I think the phrase "knowledge is power" means quite different things to the ENTJ than to say, the INTx. To the former, it means "power to make things happen out there", whilst to the latter it seems to mean more like "power to understand what happens out there, so it doesn't hurt me". The difference between innately self-preservational and pro-active temperaments, perhaps.

    The ENTJ would rather be known by their deeds and actions and achievements in the outside world, whilst the INTx wants to be known for their mental abilities and insight.

    Just some ideas there...
    Yes, yes and hell yes!

  6. #16
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Just a quick brainstorm here of all the things that occurred to me when I read the OP:

    My ENTJ's and the ENTJ part of me, tend to want to just extract the useful information from something and then go and use it in the outside world. Formal, institutional academia (specially in the UK) seems more focused quite often on just learning for the sake of hoarding knowledge, and then just using that to pass exams, to get certificates and be admired as a clever person. These things tend to be of little concern to the ENTJ, who just wants to take action and doesn't care whether some obscure examiner far away in another building "certifies" him or her as knowing this, that or the other.

    I think the phrase "knowledge is power" means quite different things to the ENTJ than to say, the INTx. To the former, it means "power to make things happen out there", whilst to the latter it seems to mean more like "power to understand what happens out there, so it doesn't hurt me". The difference between innately self-preservational and pro-active temperaments, perhaps.

    The ENTJ would rather be known by their deeds and actions and achievements in the outside world, whilst the INTx wants to be known for their mental abilities and insight.

    Just some ideas there...
    Actually I can identify with both.
    Certainly not the part about receiving certificates and passing exams.
    That nonsense means nothing in the real world. It's an illusion.
    Hell, there are MBAs out there pumping gas.


    I'm a results guy. Period.
    That said, I'm a massive researcher. Over-the-top at times.
    I can research all day long, and not realize I never ate and the sun went down.
    I not only apply knowledge in the outer world, but I also use it for self-preservation.

    Studying medicine for 12 years is a good example.
    Once I begin learning a subject, I never really stop studying it.

  7. #17
    Junior Member locus8's Avatar
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    Academia should appeal to ENTJ's due to the focus on research and teaching. Philosophy is very appealing for any N, as one of the criteria of N is to be interested in the abstract.

    Would ENTJ's be happy in academia? I think they would if they were able to become a professor. Otherwise, I don't think research would satisfy their need for Extraversion and Judging. They might also get bored with the fact that research is not applied and they are not having a direct effect on their environment.

    I'd more likely see the ENTJ as the researcher launching a spin-off based on ideas in fundamental research, rather than the person pursuing research as a life long goal.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by locus8 View Post
    Would ENTJ's be happy in academia? I think they would if they were able to become a professor. Otherwise, I don't think research would satisfy their need for Extraversion and Judging. They might also get bored with the fact that research is not applied and they are not having a direct effect on their environment.

    I'd more likely see the ENTJ as the researcher launching a spin-off based on ideas in fundamental research, rather than the person pursuing research as a life long goal.
    Agreed.

    Edit: Hey locus, welcome. Just noticed your post count.

  9. #19
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    My own impressions are ENTJ would study it on the side because it is interesting. But as a life long goal, I dont think so.
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    Thats if you are either ENTJ, ISFJ, ESFP or INTP

  10. #20
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I am having my "mood down" period at the moment. The length of my studies till the equivalent of a Master of Science will be around 5 years and I am gonna need around 6 years, so 12 semesters and thats normal in Germany for mechanical engineering.

    I have been onto it for 3 years now and having a down at the moment. Normally I wrote around 4-5 exams per semester and was successful in 80+ % of them, but at the moment I tend to sign up for only 1 - 2 exams and tend to chill more in the time between. It have been very taxing 3 years, I had to work / study / do internships and write about 40 exams, cause they reformed our university system and they sucked at it. Now they need to reform the reform and reform the new reform again.

    The workload tho wasnt the problem that is only taxing and can prevent you from doing other things; the whole things I learnt, I find quite intresting and in combination with working in a student job in my field besides university, I have heard the challenging call of the business world and want to dig deeper into it now, resulting in me heavily concentrating on my job and neglecting my studies.

    We had that lesson lately called "Project Management". Ok that's intresting. But the exams resulted in us having to learn a 500 page long book that came with the lesson and that contained alot of useful stuff but more stuff that was not useful. You had to learn things like basic communication, you maybe have heard of the communication model by Paul Watzlawik that categorizes two people conversing in the "Sender", "the message" and "the receiver". That was like basic knowledge and maybe thats important for some people to learn, so I accepted it. I just didnt understand, why it had to be done via a 500 page long book that relayed so many unecassry information, making your head explode.

    I passed the exam with a C+ tho and after it I burnt the book.

    I am with substitute alot about his presentation about the british university system, a lot of that counts for the german one aswell.

    I nowadays think: in Germany you have the ability to join a Fachhochschule. There you get a Bachelor or Master degree aswell, but in less time, with less information and knowledge and the whole thing is more practical oriented. There you can for example become an engineer, who geographically measures cities and coordinates building projects.

    The whole thing there is far less theorethical than at a university and you are finished faster. You only earn less money afterwards and never can become a PhD. But I dont know, fuck the PhD, I think the Fachhochschule would have been the thing for me.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

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