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  1. #71
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    no, read the title. it's about the 'why' behind it, why we do it. it has nothing to do with how fantastically you think you slice through someone's arguments.

    and, you don't have any experience with any of that.



    is that how you usually 'win' your arguments? because if an ENTP left after that, it's because it got too ridiculous and became a waste of time.
    Whew! Anybody got a fire extinguisher?...a bucket of cold water maybe?
    "..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
    'Men are meant to be with women. The rest is perversion and mental illness.'

  2. #72
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Peguy
    This thread is about the argumentative nature of ENTPs, and I'm adding my own thoughts on the issue based upon my own experiences with this aspect of the ENTP personality.
    no, read the title. it's about the 'why' behind it, why we do it. it has nothing to do with how fantastically you think you slice through someone's arguments.

    and, you don't have any experience with any of that.

    Originally Posted by Peguy
    My aren't we sensitive? Even after I clearly stated that overall I love ENTPs and I'm not saying ENTPs are dumbasses.
    is that how you usually 'win' your arguments? because if an ENTP left
    Whew~ Anybody gotta fire extinguisher?...bucket of cold water maybe?
    "..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
    'Men are meant to be with women. The rest is perversion and mental illness.'

  3. #73
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I don't feel anything when I debate - I just collect information. It's just exploration.

    I get to see what makes someone tick, how they process information and how they apply that information. And I also get to learn something more about an actual topic. Anyone who can teach me something is regarded very highly in my eyes. After arguing, I can feel tremendously close to someone - sometimes it's almost the same feeling you have after sex.

    It stops being enjoyable when someone takes an issue personally and gets upset, or refuses to listen to another point of view. If we find ourselves heated and repeating statements over again - it's clearly over.
    Jenocyde you're totally, like armchair hehe..
    "..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
    'Men are meant to be with women. The rest is perversion and mental illness.'

  4. #74
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Yeah yeah I know, cause NTs deal with facts while us NFs are emotional and deal with values.
    Ss deal and work with the facts...NTs deal with all of everything...just perhaps not as practiced with F as NFs.
    "..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
    'Men are meant to be with women. The rest is perversion and mental illness.'

  5. #75
    Senior Member Typology's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Just seeing the words 'argumentation' and 'ENTP' together is annoying me.
    Only after disaster can we be resurrected.

  6. #76
    Riva
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    ENTP have trouble being vulnerable. Really, truly vulnerable. They also have trouble expressing tenderness. Consequently, they must relate in ways that avoid these two issues.

    The ability to argue without rancor is an implied intimacy. So, in a way, if an ENTP can argue with you, it is a sign of closeness, provided there is no meanness, of course.
    that you are right. ENTPs tend to argue with people they are close to, not acquaintances.

  7. #77
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Just seeing the words 'argumentation' and 'ENTP' together is annoying me.
    Why?

  8. #78
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I never thought about the concept of me being possibly argumentative until I learnt about MBTI. Now I have looked back into my past and I definitly see that I have a constant need to bring into boring discussions, shocking new connections or to speak about the things noone dares to speak about. I never considered that as being argumentative though, cause I just try to keep a discussion going and dont want to convince every participant of my opinion.

    But then after a while I came to think about my past and present relationships. And though I have grown more routinized nowadays in dealing with bad vibes you get from people, I must admit I wasnt that always. In fact I caused alot of trouble to close friends and in relationships, which came most of the time out of the nowhere.

    I gave it as I said, some thought and I have no logical or rational explanation for this. I nowadays try to ignore my own feelings more; in a situation that is a possible candidate for a huge upcoming fistfight, I try to swallow things that poop into my mind and that would be useful to sabotage my relationship.

    I dont know if thats healthy or the ultimative way to deal with it, but the problem is basically I havent identified the source of the problem yet, therefore I cant cure it any other way. I try to filter things now more, instead of randomly speaking what poops into the mind and to think about them in private + carefully outweigh, if they are that dangerous to myself, as I firstly felt about them. Given some time and I forget most of the things, what is relieving.

    If that all doesnt help the last refuge I take is to exhaust myself with work, hobbies or books. After that you are grateful to spent some time with friends or your loved one, in a situation where you dont need to think nomore.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  9. #79
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    So in what ways do ENTPs argue to try and bond with someone? What goes through your mind as you enter your banter or your fight? Do you enjoy it? When does it quit being enjoyable and become serious or draining?
    Depends on the situation. If I'm wanting to hash out an idea, then, it's just a spit-fire exchange of ideas for ideas, counter for counter...then, I could care less who's at the other end of the debate. Prince or pauper. It's a complete Ne+Ti zone (with a healthy dose of Si). I mostly do this on online forums where the primary interest for me ARE the discussions/ideas (and quite secondary, the 'people' behind the avatar and made-up usernames). Thus, my main goal is to flesh out my idea by giving a jump-off point, and waiting for the 'attacks'/counters. I am committed to fully understanding the idea, and as such, will hold steady to the 'side', in a way, that I'm asking for holes to be shot through as I'm a literal sitting duck. I'm literally swimming in ideas/thoughts then. And, as such, I can't limit it to those I'm close to/intimate with...because: 1) I must utilize F, which sidetracks me, 2) limited number of people in my life, hence, limiting the points of views, I'll be exposing my ideas to, as well, the repetition of sources, 3) assumption that they will know of topic, thus, limits the topics I would then have up for discussion.

    For those I'm closest to, it will depend on their personality. If they're, like my ESFJ and my xSxx best friends, I stay away from debate with them, as history has shown that they will take it personally (within 17minutes and 29 seconds into it). With my boyfriend, I love debating, but the 'edge' is taken off because I sometimes sidetrack myself in Fe-goodness, and give flirting one-liners and such back. Then, it's playful and gooey goodness.

    For my closest friends, the intimacy in debate only happens with certain topics, topics that are philosophical and in the inter-relationship category. Like, "why do people want to marry?" "what is the motivation for people wanting to have children?"and other such things, where, there's a chance for me to relate much in-depth personal anecdotes about self (and as they understand/know me personally, it's easier to have these discussions with them)....and these are the debates I have most, and engage quite willingly, in terms of having an intimate debate with the ones I love. And, it's more of a discussion than a counter point-by-point, but more holistic in nature. And, yes, the ESFJ and xSxx engage in these with me. Minus tears. These are more Ne+Fe (with support by Ti, as needed).

    .
    .
    .
    But...what do I know? I don't argue/debate. EVER!

  10. #80
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    yeah, and the point at which it becomes draining is when the other person thinks I'm making a personal attack on them and starts a) "defending" themselves against it and b) attacking back in a personal way and c) demanding that I "justify" what I say. When voices start getting raised and there's actual negative feeling there, that's when I wish I'd never trusted this person with my thoughts in the first place and am making mental notes not to do so again.

    I'm not saying I never take things personally, but I honestly think that even when I do, I still try to respond objectively. An example of the difference I mean might be something like... well suppose I say "but that's stupid!" and the person I said it to thinks I mean THEY are stupid, when I'm just talking about the point they made, saying it's inconsistent with what they said before or what we both know or something like that. The other person thinks I'm being disrespectful of them but I don't feel that way at all, I'm just thinking well duh, yeah you just said something that I can't help thinking is a bit crap, but you know, if you can explain why it's not then I'm listening. And why would I think someone saying something stupid made them a stupid/crap person? Fuck, everyone says stupid things sometimes - it's because you're not stupid that I'm assuming that when this happens with you, you want it to be pointed out so you can correct it. If I thought you were stupid and didn't respect you then I wouldn't bother, cos I wouldn't credit you with either the intelligence to understand, the humility to be open to the idea of your being mistaken, or the integrity to revise your opinion in light of new data.

    Yeah, that's where it all starts to go wrong, when they take things personally.

    An example of what I mean about me doing something different with that would be... well, there isn't really anything you can say about my idea itself that will offend me or make me take it personally, but if you do make a personal remark, such as "well that's about typical of YOU, I would expect YOU to think something like that" or somesuch, then I don't so much feel upset as much as just a sort of cross between curiosity and frustration. I might instantly see what they mean - that they've got my point wrong and that the fact that they expect it (this point that I wasnt making) of me, shows they've got me wrong too, quite drastically. So I want to try to address both of those things, to find out just in what way they've taken what I said, explain how and why it's inaccurate, and how that has implications for the whole way that they see me as a person. But it's not about wanting to be loved or liked or winning or anything like that. It's about wanting things to be clear and honest, because I honestly don't mind not being liked or agreed with - as long as what's not being liked or agreed with is who I REALLY am and what I REALLY said, and not an erroneous perception of the two.

    Sorry I know I coulda explained all that better, but it's quite hard to put into words cos I wonder why anyone would need me to lol
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