User Tag List

First 56789 Last

Results 61 to 70 of 93

  1. #61
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    4,601

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Y'know, I just realized what forum this thread is on and I suddenly feel like I'm trespassing, but to the extent you might want to talk about it, my thing with that is this: I watch the people around me and listen to them all the time. I am never unaware of people, which is why it wears me out to be around them. After awhile, without anyone saying anything, I know who's full of it and who knows where the staircase is.
    Granted, NF's and especially INFP's (if that's where you lean? I dunno) can be very good at summing up people. But so am I - I'm very good at knowing what a person thinks of me and why, and where they're mistaken. If I know I'm right, but that the person doesn't trust me, then the foundation part of that staircase isn't going to be logic based at all. It'll be the part where I convince them that, despite what they might think of me, I have a point if they just bear with me for a minute, give me the benefit of the doubt and let me explain.

    Just like you're good at knowing people, but can still sometimes be wrong cos everyone's fallible, I'm good at knowing how people perceive things, including me, though I can sometimes be wrong as to the best way to persuade them that they're wrong, if I believe they are. And some people, well, there doesn't seem to be a way to convince them they're wrong about you, once they take a disliking to you.

    Also, it's kinda alien to me, the idea of someone being unwilling to climb the stairs, to extend the analogy to breaking point! I mean, I'll always climb any staircase, what's to lose? If it turns out to be BS at the top, what've I lost? Not a lot really, but I could still extract a lesson from the experience. My curiosity and openness gets the better of me pretty much every time, I know if I turn someone away I'll be wondering for ages and kicking myself, thinking, you know, suppose he was a schmuck but still had a point and my prejudice against him made me miss out on learning something? If I don't like what I see, I can always climb back down again and put it down to experience, but I might as well at least have a look. And I guess that's a symptom of just how open my views are to questioning or change - no matter what I think, I'm open to the idea that I'm wrong, and I find it hard to understand when people are not.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  2. #62
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    7,917

    Default

    Just seeing the words 'argumentation' and 'ENTP' together is annoying me.

  3. #63
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    4,226

    Default

    Hmmmm, Interesting thread….

    I lack the intellectual capability to multi-quote so I thought I’d just add a few thoughts as a list.

    1. I had no idea about the correlation between vulnerability and willingness to engage in the verbal sparring, however retrospectively this makes tons of sense. I meet mountains of ENTPs in my job. When I first meet them they are quiet and observant, then at some point become funny and witty, then morph to being willing to engage in intellectual debates. The more confident they are, the quicker they seem to make the progression. One guy-who I adore made that progression in a single day whereas others like ENTP#1-have never engaged in any form of debate with me at all. For him I would push in that direction about a topic and it would be deflected into witty sexual innuendos or stone walled. It was very disjointed honestly and I kept feeling like the train was bouncing off the track.

    2. I think the one-upmanship is less about winning/conquering in a dominant ENTJ manner and more like winning in a “puppies wrestling on the living room carpet” manner. I took Brazilian ju-jitsu for awhile and there is nothing more fun than flipping your partner around and making them submit, then you start from scratch and go again to see who wins the next time. You don’t keep track, you are just playing, roughly, but playing all the same.

    3. Why should NFs (or any other type for that matter) feel like they can comment on why an ENTP (or any other type) does stuff?

    First, it gives you guys an external, albeit subjective view to what others perceive. You get to see what the world thinks of you, even if it stings a bit. It’s what it looks like you are doing from the outside. You have to correct us when we are wrong which helps us understand you better and corrects our misconceptions.

    Second, for me, I am trying to teach Fi to be better behaved and more rational. It subconsciously makes assumptions, perceptions and judgments, that can be wildly incorrect and presumptuous, as it is a bit juvenile. By presenting those perceptions for criticism, I feed back that data and make it a more refined tool, and appreciate its weaknesses more fully.

    Right now I have been having fun watching INTJs and ENTPs but suddenly the INTPs and ISFPs are gaining much appeal…

  4. #64
    Riva
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    ENTP have trouble being vulnerable. Really, truly vulnerable. They also have trouble expressing tenderness. Consequently, they must relate in ways that avoid these two issues.

    The ability to argue without rancor is an implied intimacy. So, in a way, if an ENTP can argue with you, it is a sign of closeness, provided there is no meanness, of course.
    they can really fake it can't they? really good at that. but not for long.

  5. #65
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    1,859

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    What role does argumentation play with ENTPs? Digesthissickness had a really neat quote that has me thinking on the topic of argumentation, what it means for different people, and its potential roles in a relationship:

    To some extent I understand this. Argumentation brings things to the surface, and resolving an area of conflict is extremely gratifying. Also, banter and play verbal sparring can be fun as well, but I draw the line when I notice my punches are starting to land a bit too hard.
    Steer it with a smile, ...if they catch it and re-engage, fine. If they don't, pause. The J engages in extreme situations...allowing the sense to see it's not heading in a good direction.

    So in what ways do ENTPs argue to try and bond with someone? What goes through your mind as you enter your banter or your fight? Do you enjoy it? When does it quit being enjoyable and become serious or draining?
    It's more like a quick-wit fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants jab at engaging tactical, intuitive exchange...it's like airhockey...to see who's wittier. I love playing with ENTJs because they can't be hurt and you can really get rough, gloves-off with them!...Knowing no one is really taking anything personal, so it's fun

    It quits becoming enjoyable when the other person clearly starts really taking it personally. Sometimes this can be steered around with a smile whence playing the game.


    ENTPs in particular interest me because of the playful, almost detached enthusiasm they can sometimes argue with others.
    Yeah..you're right on this point...this makes it non-personal...the enthusiasm drives...along with the pragmatism to start new things...drives the game...it is seen as objective whence others perhaps see it as subjective and personal. This isn't cold, though, although it may appear so on the surface...because it is an extension of bonding to the other person...(I know...this is complex)..

    Also, on a personal real life level, because I've noticed a couple of times they'll keep on amping up the insults until they finally go too far. Like, almost as if it's not real until they do some damage...

    That's Right babay! It's Total, Systematic, UNBRIDLED ANNIHILATION!!! Hehe..no well, it could be, yes (because we can make a deal with our conscience to justify doing about anything)
    But playfully..it's almost like, "Can this other person see that what I'm really doing is attempting a bond?" It's mind-bonding coupled with one-upmanship in the context of sport..it's a unique paradigm in that NTs find a certain satisfaction in intuitive mind-connecting with others using less than enough concrete information to bridge ideas...leaving the other to intuit the point...it's like mental ping-pong..and IT IS FUN! It's a sort of high-level intellectual game, lots of quirks, verbal spins and twists..very quickly....

    My experience is ENTJs pick up on it quickly if they're not too focused on making some other decision...I suspect INFJs 'get it'...

    S's are mostly lost and speak things like we're space aliens or something (whatever they think is fine with me) or out of line with social convention. What's interesting is they don't run into us very often...(2-3% of the population) so when they do, and witness our character, they find it odd...but what's essential would be for them to wrap their mind around the fact that we are legitimate...Just because something is rare doesn't make it illegitimate...

    Thanks
    "..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
    'Men are meant to be with women. The rest is perversion and mental illness.'

  6. #66
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    1,859

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ravana View Post
    they can really fake it can't they? really good at that. but not for long.
    Yes, and No. I suppose that view is in the context of 'faking'...but sincerely, it is not this.

    The architecture of attitude and complexity of this game makes it a legitimate, natural functioning..

    I mean, there is no attempt or intent.

    Ss may perhaps have talent in 'faking'...and it could be learned, yes, but this is not the motivational path.
    "..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
    'Men are meant to be with women. The rest is perversion and mental illness.'

  7. #67
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    4,601

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    First, it gives you guys an external, albeit subjective view to what others perceive. You get to see what the world thinks of you, even if it stings a bit. It’s what it looks like you are doing from the outside. You have to correct us when we are wrong which helps us understand you better and corrects our misconceptions.
    Agreed, very constructive and essential and what I ideally seek out most of the time. However, doesn't seem to work that way quite often.

    It's all very well to say that I (hypothetical "I") should be open to hearing how I come across to other people, but the other side of the coin is that those other people ought to be open to the idea that they might have me wrong; open to listening to my side of the story, and not just use the exercise as an excuse to rant and put me down and get revenge for all the perceived slights they believe they've had at my hands.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  8. #68
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    1,859

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    Hmmmm, Interesting thread….



    ....Right now I have been having fun watching INTJs and ENTPs but suddenly the INTPs and ISFPs are gaining much appeal…


    Hey! Come back over here!! What are doing going over there... What about loyalty to the ENTP?

    *Typejumping Rascal* :steam:

    "..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
    'Men are meant to be with women. The rest is perversion and mental illness.'

  9. #69
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    1,859

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    ... and not just use the exercise as an excuse to rant and put me down and get revenge for all the perceived slights they believe they've had at my hands.
    Haha Yeah! I know exactly...when they think they've got ya...but don't have the slightest how you processed their attempt...

    (*Don't appreciate morons*)
    "..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
    'Men are meant to be with women. The rest is perversion and mental illness.'

  10. #70
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    1,859

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    And some people, well, there doesn't seem to be a way to convince them they're wrong about you, once they take a disliking to you.

    If through someone else whom they have confidence in..If the 3rd person shows or describes your 'colors' in a way the 2nd person can understand, this is possible..

    Informing by proxy.
    "..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
    'Men are meant to be with women. The rest is perversion and mental illness.'

Similar Threads

  1. Finding the proper role of government in modern society.
    By DiscoBiscuit in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 02-24-2012, 07:25 PM
  2. The role of TV in your life
    By fidelia in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 05-05-2011, 05:43 PM
  3. The Role of Shadow Functions in MBTi Type
    By MerkW in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 11-03-2010, 11:26 PM
  4. Parenting Philosophies/The Role of Children In Society
    By Charmed Justice in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 122
    Last Post: 11-19-2009, 10:51 PM
  5. The Role of the Citizen in Society
    By Blank in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 09-01-2009, 05:54 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO