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View Poll Results: As an NT, do you believe in the existence of God/gods?

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  • I am an INTP and I believe in a supernatural god of some kind.

    4 8.89%
  • I am an ENTP and I believe in a supernatural god of some kind.

    4 8.89%
  • I am an INTJ and I believe in a supernatural god of some kind.

    1 2.22%
  • I am an ENTJ and I believe in a supernatural god of some kind.

    2 4.44%
  • I am an INTP and I am an agnostic.

    4 8.89%
  • I am an ENTP and I am an agnostic.

    4 8.89%
  • I am an INTJ and I am an agnostic.

    1 2.22%
  • I am an ENTJ and I am an agnostic.

    3 6.67%
  • I am an INTP and I am an atheist.

    11 24.44%
  • I am an ENTP and I am an atheist.

    4 8.89%
  • I am an INTJ and I am an atheist.

    5 11.11%
  • I am an ENTJ and I am an atheist.

    2 4.44%
  • I've never thought about this, and would not classify myself as any of the above.

    0 0%
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Results 31 to 40 of 47

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan View Post
    Atheism can mean both "lack of belief in God" and "belief in the non-existence of God."

    OP should've used the terms "Weak Atheist" (Agnostic Atheist) and "Strong Atheist" (Gnostic Atheist) instead of "Agnostic" and "Atheist".

    I chose atheist becase I lack belief, not because I believe in the non-existence.
    Thanks for clarifying this. Sorry for the failure of the poll.

  2. #32
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleph-One View Post
    If we were genuinely ignorant of the processes which formed these things, it would still not appropriate to entertain every conjecture about their formation equally. But, as it happens, we do actually know how they formed especially in the case of galaxies and the earth. And I tend to get slightly sensitive about it when someone who makes an argument from ignorance (which is the most supremely arrogant fallacy of all - "I don't know this personally, so it must be must be unknowable because I'm so smart and would have figured it out otherwise") tells me to get over myself. That's the pot calling the porcelain china black.
    Ok, then please do explain how and why the earth, galaxy and universe were created... Please enlighten me, since you actually know.

    If your definition of arrogance is me admitting what I do not know, then I will gladly accept the title of arrogant. No need to argue about that.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Aleph-One's Avatar
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    Now you're just abusing concepts. Arguments from ignorance are not positions of agnosticism. Saying one does not know something is not the same thing as saying a thing cannot be known be known by anyone. Agnosticism is about recognizing one's own limitations, something you appear to be having some difficulty doing.
    No, but an argument for agnosticism or against strong atheism which has, as its premise, the statement that we don't know how the earth, galaxies or universe formed is an argument from ignorance.

    If your definition of arrogance is me admitting what I do not know, then I will gladly accept the title of arrogant.
    You did not merely state that you did not know something. You stated that your not knowing something about astrophysical processes was grounds for agnosticism about deities. That is an argument from ignorance.

    Ok, then please do explain how and why the earth, galaxy and universe were created... Please enlighten me, since you actually know.
    There is no more sense in asking "why" they formed than asking why rainclouds form. It's ridiculous to think that everything serves an ordained purpose. "How" is a matter of astrophysics, and for galaxies and planets can be found in the relevant textbooks.
    Aleph-One, you look like the kind of person who would spend his spare time building a giant robot to hold the government for ransom. -Some Guy on the Internet

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleph-One View Post
    No, but an argument for agnosticism or against strong atheism which has, as its premise, the statement that we don't know how the earth, galaxies or universe formed is an argument from ignorance.
    I was under the impression that we have theories about the formation of the earth, galaxies and universe but only theories. No solid facts.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by maliafee View Post
    Thanks for clarifying this. Sorry for the failure of the poll.
    Don't apologize! It's a great poll. It gives us all a chance to see how different our understanding of things are. I'm very glad you created it.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleph-One View Post
    No, but an argument for agnosticism or against strong atheism which has, as its premise, the statement that we don't know how the earth, galaxies or universe formed is an argument from ignorance.


    You did not merely state that you did not know something. You stated that your not knowing something about astrophysical processes was grounds for agnosticism about deities. That is an argument from ignorance.
    Could it be, perhaps, that she was referring to what got the whole thing moving in the first place, rather than the physical events that took place? The "why?" rather than the "how?". People can ask "why?" without assuming an ordained purpose...as in "I wonder why this universe came into existence?" The answer to that question is 'we don't know'. That is the point. We don't KNOW (there is no justified true belief). What's really ridiculous is to assume the western analytic school has got things all figured out. If we were having this discussion 250 years ago you'd be telling us how ridiculous it is to not believe in a god.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    Don't apologize! It's a great poll. It gives us all a chance to see how different our understanding of things are. I'm very glad you created it.
    Thank you. I thought it would be fun, and interesting.

    I was thinking of my brother Dan (INTJ) and his fiancee Ada (INTP). When they met in the UCLA philosophy club, she was very interested in metaphysical philosophy (am I wording that correctly?) and he was a staunch atheist who held the view some other NT's in this thread do about there being more evidence that God is made up than that we don't know either way. Now they both pretty much take that stance (they've been together for over 2 years and their main source of contention is their differing views on Israeli politics).

    What happened to INTP Ada's sense of a metaphysical world? Then I thought about belief in God. I wanted to see if other INTP's were more likely to believe in the supernatural.

    Anyway, I'm really enjoying the argument from afar. I wouldn't dare argue with an NT about a serious topic (every time I try I end up crying alone ).

  8. #38
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Sitting on the fence. Just in case.

  9. #39
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleph-One View Post
    You stated that your not knowing something about astrophysical processes was grounds for agnosticism about deities.
    I stated nothing of the sort. I clearly and simply said that I am agnostic (a+gnosis=without knowledge). You chose to add your personal meanings to my basic definition, as well as insults.

    But now that you bring it up... Because I know nothing about the astrophysical process, it also means I know nothing about the creation of that same astrophysical process. Who created the laws of astrophysics? I don't know how the earth was created and I don't know why. I don't know if a deity created it or not - seems unlikely, but there are also seems to have been a plan, since everything is so symbiotic. The questions of "how" and "why" are not irrelevant and it makes perfect sense to ask them.

    I'm not going to bicker any further with you. I took issue with your post about agnosticism and the language in which you chose to express yourself. I've made my point clear already. Take it or leave it.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Aleph-One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    Could it be, perhaps, that she was referring to what got the whole thing moving in the first place, rather than the physical events that took place? The "why?" rather than the "how?". People can ask "why?" without assuming an ordained purpose...as in "I wonder why this universe came into existence?" The answer to that question is 'we don't know'. That is the point. We don't KNOW (there is no justified true belief). What's really ridiculous is to assume the western analytic school has got things all figured out. If we were having this discussion 250 years ago you'd be telling us how ridiculous it is to not believe in a god.
    If she meant the same thing, why did she ask "how" and "why" as two different questions? If I use the word "why" as a synonym for "how" I don't go through the trouble of distinguishing between the two. And how do you know what I would have argued 250 years ago? Have I given you any indication that I'm making an argument here from a consensus position rather than taking things on their own merits? I can't possibly have, because active disbelief in the supernatural is not the consensus position.

    And whether or not we know how a thing happened or how a thing does happen is not grounds for agnosticism about deities. Here's a dialogue:
    Man 1: I don't believe in storm giants. In fact, I have good reason for thinking they do not exist.
    Man 2: How can you say that? I don't know how the red spot on Jupiter works, so we can't claim that storm giants don't exist. We just don't know.
    Man 1:

    Who created the laws of astrophysics?
    We did.

    This argument has been conducted illogically and in poor faith, with more presumption of my motives and defects than cases being made. I've no reason to persist in it any longer.
    Aleph-One, you look like the kind of person who would spend his spare time building a giant robot to hold the government for ransom. -Some Guy on the Internet

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