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  1. #51
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    according to the rules, the basic accomplishment of a dialog is: authentic display of your position in relation to the position of your proponent. if whatever you want accomplish is something else, its not a dialog anymore, hence a violation of the rules. basic Fe/Te understanding.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lett View Post
    Your subject hopping is something I might have picked out to get angry about when I was younger and more intent on attempting to dominate people intellectually to cover up for my own fears in other areas.
    Sounds familiar. I have speculated that my friend has insecurities that lead him to be overbearing and argumentative in situations like these. Then again, I don't know what it's like to be an INTP, so I'm hesitant to make any kind of judgement. He looks at every conversation as a win/lose situation and gets competitive about who is right and wrong. If I ever corner him in an argument (which happens rarely, but does happen ) he either won't admit I'm right, or he'll make an excuse like "I'm tired," or "I'm off my game today; I'll give that one to you." I do not believe I'm obnoxious or arrogant in these conversations--it's only the principles themselves and the learning processes that matter to me. I also consistently, genuinely let him know how much I value his insight and intelligence. Therefore, I don't see any reason for him to feel inadequate. I'm never sure whether to chalk it up to his insecurity or his being an INTP. Maybe it's a little of both. I need to remember to pay attention to maturity level.

  3. #53
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jewelchild View Post
    Sounds familiar. I have speculated that my friend has insecurities that lead him to be overbearing and argumentative in situations like these. Then again, I don't know what it's like to be an INTP, so I'm hesitant to make any kind of judgement. He looks at every conversation as a win/lose situation and gets competitive about who is right and wrong. If I ever corner him in an argument (which happens rarely, but does happen ) he either won't admit I'm right, or he'll make an excuse like "I'm tired," or "I'm off my game today; I'll give that one to you." I do not believe I'm obnoxious or arrogant in these conversations--it's only the principles themselves and the learning processes that matter to me. I also consistently, genuinely let him know how much I value his insight and intelligence. Therefore, I don't see any reason for him to feel inadequate. I'm never sure whether to chalk it up to his insecurity or his being an INTP. Maybe it's a little of both. I need to remember to pay attention to maturity level.
    Definitely insecurity. I wouldn't do any of that stuff normally. But occasionally when feeling well... insecure. It happened a lot more when I was younger, also. I normally try and catch myself when I'm doing it though.

    He's basically afraid of looking incompetent. He needs to realize that accepting the times when you're wrong makes you look more competent.
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
    - Costrin

  4. #54
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleph-One View Post
    Yes, there are rules. Equivocation and obfuscation are always wrong, and irrelevance is a distraction. They're squid-ink style defenses.
    Defenses? Um, they weren't having a formal debate. They weren't even arguing in the beginning. There are rules (if you want to call them rules, more like informal guidelines) to argumentation. Casual conversations, however, develop because people make connections between topics and shift the conversation based on those connections. And the connections needn't always be logical ones, either.

    I don't know about you, but I won't be calling someone fallacious the next time they shift conversation to a topic that has, at best, a tenuous relationship to the one we were originally talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jewelchild View Post
    If it were an everyday conversation about the weather, I suppose I'd agree, but we were debating the merits of a particular belief, so it was slightly more formal. Wouldn't it drive you nuts if you were having a debate and somebody kept bouncing around on unrelated subjects?
    Maybe I'm not understanding your situation clearly. I thought that your conversation had started with your INTP friend making the statement that some guy was stupid. Then you decided to be argumentative by picking on the is/being distinction in his language use. Then it blew into a full argument with the end-result of your INTP friend walking away in a huff.

    If the above story is correct, then you weren't having a debate to begin with, and I don't see why it was "wrong" for you to bring in the issue of the is/being distinction. I would of course be irritated if someone was bringing in irrelevant information in a debate about a specific issue, but it sounds like the irrelevant ideas that you were "bouncing around" were what started the debate in the first place. Not that you were having a debate already and you brought up something irrelevant. I don't know...maybe I'm missing the whole story.

    You at first (in this thread) were wondering if you were right/wrong in your position within the debate that ensued between you and your friend. Then when several people confirmed that your argument had some merit, you were still wondering why your friend would be so angry and concluded that, if it wasn't because of the irrationality of your arguments, then it was because you introduced irrelevant information into the conversation. Now I'm saying that since, from my understanding, you weren't having a "more formal" debate to begin with, I don't see why taking the conversation in a relatively tangential direction is wrong anyway. The point being that your INTP friend was being a bit of an irrational butthead, and that you don't need to worry about how to please him or assume that you were responsible for the deterioration of the debate.

    He doesn't have the default upper hand on rationality merely because he's INTP.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post

    Maybe I'm not understanding your situation clearly. I thought that your conversation had started with your INTP friend making the statement that some guy was stupid. Then you decided to be argumentative by picking on the is/being distinction in his language use. Then it blew into a full argument with the end-result of your INTP friend walking away in a huff.
    I think I left out some pertinent information in my original post because I was trying not to be wordy. Let me explain more clearly.

    1. An INTJ friend of mine believes something that I find to be strange and incorrect.
    2. I ask the INTP what he thinks about the INTJ's belief. (The INTP does not know the INTJ.)
    3. The INTP and I discuss this belief briefly. He knows I agree with him but I'm playing the devil's advocate for sake of exploring the subject. (Nothing new--we do this all the time.)
    4. The INTP says the belief is a sweeping judgement that does not take all available information into account. Because of this, the INTP says, the INTJ is "stupid."
    4. I correct INTP and say that the INTJ "is being" stupid, but it's not fair or correct to call the INTJ "stupid."
    5. The INTP gets annoyed and says "is stupid" and "is being stupid" are the same thing, then reiterates that anyone who makes a sweeping judgement without taking all information into consideration "is stupid."
    6. I mention that the INTJ is actually a very intelligent person, and try to re-explain why it's better to say he's "being stupid."
    7. The INTP leaves in a huff.

    I wanted to understand if the INTP got upset and gave up arguing with me because he was correct and I was somehow missing his logical point. Our conversations often end like this, where he gets annoyed and stops talking. In the past, it's been because I didn't know how to have a proper debate conversation and would use logical fallacies or poor arguing that frustrated the INTP. He didn't feel like giving me lessons on how to argue every time we talked, so he'd just stop talking. Understandable. I just wanted to know who was correct, as well as why I might have frustrated the INTP (so I can improve.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    He doesn't have the default upper hand on rationality merely because he's INTP.
    That is a very nice thing to hear. I think sometimes this friend likes me to think he has the default upper hand! I feel really inadequate (ok, downright dumb) when talking to INTP's, but I learn so much from them that I keep coming back for conversations, even when they're less than kind to me. This one calls me an idiot and tells me I'm stupid on a regular basis. If I say he's hurt my feelings, he tells me I'm oversensitive and runs me in mental circles until I give up trying to explain myself. I can't really keep up with him and he's a master at messing with people's heads, even when he doesn't believe what he's convincing someone else to believe. I'm realizing that I've been allowing this behavior and it's probably not so cool. I know other INTP's, but I'm not very close friends with them or we don't get time to talk often, so it will be nice to get some INTP perspectives on this forum instead of talking to one unkind INTP the majority of the time.

  6. #56
    Senior Member Misty_Mountain_Rose's Avatar
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    I wonder sometimes if INTP's weren't put on the planet just to drive others insane...
    Embrace the possibilities.

  7. #57
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misty_Mountain_Rose View Post
    I wonder sometimes if INTP's weren't put on the planet just to drive others insane...
    The irony is that we try our best to do the opposite.

  8. #58
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jewelchild View Post
    That is a very nice thing to hear. I think sometimes this friend likes me to think he has the default upper hand! I feel really inadequate (ok, downright dumb) when talking to INTP's, but I learn so much from them that I keep coming back for conversations, even when they're less than kind to me. This one calls me an idiot and tells me I'm stupid on a regular basis. If I say he's hurt my feelings, he tells me I'm oversensitive and runs me in mental circles until I give up trying to explain myself. I can't really keep up with him and he's a master at messing with people's heads, even when he doesn't believe what he's convincing someone else to believe. I'm realizing that I've been allowing this behavior and it's probably not so cool. I know other INTP's, but I'm not very close friends with them or we don't get time to talk often, so it will be nice to get some INTP perspectives on this forum instead of talking to one unkind INTP the majority of the time.
    Really? He sounds like an immature asshole. I'd get a better INTP.
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
    - Costrin

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    Really? He sounds like an immature asshole. I'd get a better INTP.
    Am I starting a collection? Lol.
    I-71%, N-80%, F-74%, P-96%

  10. #60
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jewelchild View Post
    Am I starting a collection? Lol.
    Yes, you are.
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
    - Costrin

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