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  1. #21
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by forzen View Post
    Errrr...humans are animals. Sexual drive is a necessity in the survival of the species. If we didn't have it, it would be a dissaster as fewer people will procreate and we would have a law to mandate and pair people off to make sure its being done. Then we would have issue on being force to do something we don't want to do.
    The difference between you and I, is that you see sustaining human life as an ideal. I do not, and think there's something more important than that.

    Crude necessities that destroy and distort consciousness and self into a single, oppressive form that disregards a person's unique mental or emotional nature, are not something I will ever consider positive. Inevitable, perhaps, but not good.

  2. #22
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    Women are objectified for their bodies.
    Men are objectified for their money.
    And a lot of my friends try to warn me about men I meet, pointing out that he is only interested in whatever body part of mine he was staring at. I couldn't care less. That body part is no less valid then, say, my interest in his sense of humor. It works the same way with a woman who is interested in a partner's earning potential. You like what you like, plain and simple, and we are all just a sum of parts. If you happen to value one part over another, should you be demonized?

  3. #23
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    And a lot of my friends try to warn me about men I meet, pointing out that he is only interested in whatever body part of mine he was staring at. I couldn't care less. That body part is no less valid then, say, my interest in his sense of humor. It works the same way with a woman who is interested in a partner's earning potential. You like what you like, plain and simple, and we are all just a sum of parts. If you happen to value one part over another, should you be demonized?
    Yes. The thoughts and feelings of a person are the only parts that are really them. If you like something else about them, you're essentially pulling a thinking, feeling, conscious person into a role that an object, animal, or someone in a coma could fill just as easily. It means you essentially have no real appreciation for the fact that the person has a heart or mind, or at least very weak ones.

    I think only a few people truly feel anything wrong with it, though. Some may pretend to see the problems in it in order to sympathize with me, but I think most of them don't get it.

  4. #24
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Yes. The thoughts and feelings of a person are the only parts that are really them. If you like something else about them, you're essentially pulling a thinking, feeling, conscious person into a role that an object, animal, or someone in a coma could fill just as easily. It means you essentially have no real appreciation for the fact that the person has a heart or mind, or at least very weak ones.

    I think only a few people truly feel anything wrong with it, though. Some may pretend to see the problems in it in order to sympathize with me, but I think most of them don't get it.
    But would you love a partner any less if he or she became severely brain damaged or suffered from Alzheimer's? My point is we are all parts, and all of our parts will deteriorate. Brain included.

    I like wisdom and wit, but I acknowledge that my partner will be less sharp with age. If he likes my chest, same thing... Usually those that value a brain end up with those who also value one. Those that value a tight toned body, end up with those that value one. It works out, usually...

  5. #25
    Senior Member forzen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    The difference between you and I, is that you see sustaining human life as an ideal. I do not, and think there's something more important than that.

    Crude necessities that destroy and distort consciousness and self into a single, oppressive form that disregards a person's unique mental or emotional nature, are not something I will ever consider positive. Inevitable, perhaps, but not good.
    Procreating isn't a ideal, its a way of life. Every species goes thru it in different ways. Your perspective that its wrong to have these desire because of a higher calling is subjective.

  6. #26
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    But would you love a partner any less if he or she became severely brain damaged or suffered from Alzheimer's? My point is we are all parts, and all of our parts will deteriorate. Brain included.
    I have to admit... I probably would love them less. Because to me, "they" are not there anymore at that point. They're just a shell with no real awareness of who I am, or what anything means. Essentially, I would consider them to be dead at that point.
    Quote Originally Posted by forzen View Post
    Procreating isn't a ideal, its a way of life. Every species goes thru it in different ways. Your perspective that its wrong to have these desire because of a higher calling is subjective.
    I didn't say it was wrong, I just said it wasn't good because of the fact that we're conscious and can think/feel. The thing is, I wouldn't call them feelings. I'd call them instincts.

  7. #27
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I have to admit... I probably would love them less. Because to me, "they" are not there anymore at that point. They're just a shell with no real awareness of who I am, or what anything means.
    I love your honesty. I would probably feel the same way. But it is shallow, just like leaving someone when their body fails them. Attraction can't be measured or judged. You just like what you like. What you do with that attraction - the distance you are willing to go for a person - is the part that I have trouble coming to grips with.

  8. #28
    Senior Member forzen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    But would you love a partner any less if he or she became severely brain damaged or suffered from Alzheimer's? My point is we are all parts, and all of our parts will deteriorate. Brain included.

    I like wisdom and wit, but I acknowledge that my partner will be less sharp with age. If he likes my chest, same thing... Usually those that value a brain end up with those who also value one. Those that value a tight toned body, end up with those that value one. It works out, usually...
    I would have to agree. All do, talking about your chest all day would get tiring versus the ability to form a conversation with your brain. Belongs in the same catergory, but one is less diverse than the other. Hence the meaning of shallow comes to mind.

  9. #29
    Senior Member forzen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I have to admit... I probably would love them less. Because to me, "they" are not there anymore at that point. They're just a shell with no real awareness of who I am, or what anything means. Essentially, I would consider them to be dead at that point.


    I didn't say it was wrong, I just said it wasn't good because of the fact that we're conscious and can think/feel. The thing is, I wouldn't call them feelings. I'd call them instincts.

    Instinct and feeling are two sides of the same coin. Just like voluntary muscles and involuntary muscles.

  10. #30
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I love your honesty. I would probably feel the same way. But it is shallow, just like leaving someone when their body fails them. Attraction can't be measured or judged. You just like what you like. What you do with that attraction - the distance you are willing to go for a person - is the part that I have trouble coming to grips with.
    Ah. You know, what's funny is... I can't even see why mine would be shallow. I can see how other people's would be, but not mine. If people really do instinctively value different things (like some valuing the mind and some the body), then it's not bad to me. It works fine. But if everyone is inherently drawn to the same things regardless of what kind of person they are or how they think, that's kind of disgusting. It's hard to explain why.

    Quote Originally Posted by forzen View Post
    Instinct and feeling are two sides of the same coin.
    Probably for an INTP, anyway. I think a lot of NFs would disagree with you, though.

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