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  1. #71
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    to use your example...i know deep down that if someone were to hurt my child it would crush my whole world but the idea of then allowing myself to become something i despise wouldn't occur to me. i am who i am...and someone can't turn me into something else. to me there is no justifiable murder...that doesn't just change based on the person with the opinion. war makes no sense...there is no right side...just different realities. etc etc

    edit: i didn't mean that to sound all judgy and high horsey...was just trying to give my "fi" perspective.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
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  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    edit: i didn't mean that to sound all judgy and high horsey...was just trying to give my "fi" perspective.
    that brings up a good question: do you view your moral code as yours or as an objective one that applies to all?

    i have known Fi users, particularly ESFP & ISFPs, who have jumped to say "i know this is wrong" or even (for the MBTI aware) "my Fi grants me the ability to just know when something is wrong" when i was examining an ethical question with rational arguments on both sides... acting like there is one truth, one objective morality we should all adhere too, that they just magically know.

    likewise, what about when Fi users disagree? for example:
    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    no, first of all i don't think most "moral codes" are "imaginary stones"; i think they can be quite logical and expected and if you want we can discuss examples one by one (for this concept refer to the kantian morals i told you about before).
    secondly, i dont tend to judge people, i appreciate people being free, and i also appreciate when people have a moral backbone, which might be different than mine, but which needs to be coherent nonetheless.
    what about when they contradict yours? how would you react to someone whose coherent inner truth and moral code and family values includes honor killing?

    or maybe if i would bring more american topics - how would you react to someone whose moral code includes abortions (if your against them) or alternatively - the other extreme which i heard happening in the last few years - someone whose moral code supports executing abortion doctors?

    in any of those cases, will you admire their moral backbone and standing for what they believe in, regardless if you share those values?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    the idea of then allowing myself to become something i despise wouldn't occur to me. i am who i am...and someone can't turn me into something else.
    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    so the point is that Fi is my essence, its unchangeable and i don't have values of a "drama queen" like apparently you understand it to be, they are quite logical i tihnk. again, if you want details we can discuss one example or two.
    there are many traits that can define you as a person... many of them may change over time, but some will not, you learn them as you go along. why do you need a code to define yourself by? would you loose your sense of identity without it?

    more so it is my understanding that there are as many ENFP 7s as their are ENFP 4s. what are they (and other non-4's) are getting out of this deal other then a sense of identity?

    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    ps. also, let me add: if there are no Fi users, then you can have an extreme situation like Hitler and WWII. where people go with the "feelings" of the majority and don't feel inside that there is something wrong, so to speak.
    that's a bad example because its just as easy to object to the holocaust and the war out of empathy for it's victims point of view, the only places where Fi and Fe really diverge are when their are no victims. those are the examples i am interested in understanding - the ones i can't relate to.

  3. #73
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    To me its this:

    Fi means self-preservation having the bad trait of egoism.
    Fe means social-preservation having the bad trait of narcissm.

    They are polar opposites thats why they conflict.

    Relating Hitler to a Fe phaenomena is unscientific. Thats like me saying all Americans are dumb. There is definitly a connection (between dumb and american I ofc mean ) but its way too way on the surface. The dynamic that let to Hitler rising to power was an uneducated society, who got their newest news from gossip or nsdap party events in the street, cause they had no television, no connection to the outer world. they were steered by propaganda. In fact in that times it needed you to be very social critical, having a net into other countries to get information and you needed to be a very strong maverick that fought against society. of course that sounds very Fi but I am the example who disproves the sole Fi theory: I am a Fe user and still I am a misantroph. I|ld like to bomb them all to a desert island and lead a live alone and in solitude.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    To me its this:

    Fi means self-preservation having the bad trait of egoism.
    Fe means social-preservation having the bad trait of narcissm.
    if this is true, and while ignoring the place of sx, we could expect the instinctual variants to be:
    Fi users - sx/sp sp/sx sp/so
    Fe users - sx/so so/sx so/sp

    that would be interesting... it does fit with me (Fe - sx/so)... are there any statistics matching MBTI with instinctual variants?

  5. #75
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
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    Most ENFPs seem to like being around. And they're fun. They get combative though. And when I'm feeling vulnerable that's a real problem.
    "..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
    'Men are meant to be with women. The rest is perversion and mental illness.'

  6. #76
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guesswho View Post
    ...All ENTPs may function the same, but they are DIFFERENT PEOPLE, who grew up in different backgrounds, with different friends, with different IQs, etc....

    Well put.
    "..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
    'Men are meant to be with women. The rest is perversion and mental illness.'

  7. #77
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    first quote: what do you mean, how i would react? i respect their position. it's all relative and coming from a different education etc. maybe if i had their education i would be against abortion too. however, i will not tolerate any "moral codes" that remove freedom of other people (and i don't believe to have them myself). for example, i have nothing against religion, but i have a pet peeve with most religious organizations in that they insist on limiting people and telling them what to do. i don't tell anyone what to do and i don't want anyone doing that to me.
    now, in the case that there is a big argument between me and someone that has a different moral code than mine and that we have to arrive to one conclusion and one only (moral killing, war etc): i have difficulty to make concessions and will tend to defend my side, mostly because I'm quite self-centered (this could be a flaw of Fi in fact)

    second quote: you don't "need" a code. i told you before that i often find myself surprised that my morals do not change over time. its just the way i am. its not externally built or rationalized, it comes from inside. it just does not change, its innate and its called being coherent. i grow, i learn things, i become more flexible and better with people, but my principles don't change (god, are you human? why do we even have to debate over this, its seems so obvious to me, i want to cry of frustration )

    third quote: I'm tired. you please come up with an example if you want to discuss something more real. i can't really think of anything right now.




    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    that brings up a good question: do you view your moral code as yours or as an objective one that applies to all?

    i have known Fi users, particularly ESFP & ISFPs, who have jumped to say "i know this is wrong" or even (for the MBTI aware) "my Fi grants me the ability to just know when something is wrong" when i was examining an ethical question with rational arguments on both sides... acting like there is one truth, one objective morality we should all adhere too, that they just magically know.

    likewise, what about when Fi users disagree? for example:

    what about when they contradict yours? how would you react to someone whose coherent inner truth and moral code and family values includes honor killing?

    or maybe if i would bring more american topics - how would you react to someone whose moral code includes abortions (if your against them) or alternatively - the other extreme which i heard happening in the last few years - someone whose moral code supports executing abortion doctors?

    in any of those cases, will you admire their moral backbone and standing for what they believe in, regardless if you share those values?




    there are many traits that can define you as a person... many of them may change over time, but some will not, you learn them as you go along. why do you need a code to define yourself by? would you loose your sense of identity without it?

    more so it is my understanding that there are as many ENFP 7s as their are ENFP 4s. what are they (and other non-4's) are getting out of this deal other then a sense of identity?



    that's a bad example because its just as easy to object to the holocaust and the war out of empathy for it's victims point of view, the only places where Fi and Fe really diverge are when their are no victims. those are the examples i am interested in understanding - the ones i can't relate to.

  8. #78
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    that brings up a good question: do you view your moral code as yours or as an objective one that applies to all?

    i have known Fi users, particularly ESFP & ISFPs, who have jumped to say "i know this is wrong" or even (for the MBTI aware) "my Fi grants me the ability to just know when something is wrong" when i was examining an ethical question with rational arguments on both sides... acting like there is one truth, one objective morality we should all adhere too, that they just magically know.

    likewise, what about when Fi users disagree? for example:

    what about when they contradict yours? how would you react to someone whose coherent inner truth and moral code and family values includes honor killing?

    or maybe if i would bring more american topics - how would you react to someone whose moral code includes abortions (if your against them) or alternatively - the other extreme which i heard happening in the last few years - someone whose moral code supports executing abortion doctors?

    in any of those cases, will you admire their moral backbone and standing for what they believe in, regardless if you share those values?




    there are many traits that can define you as a person... many of them may change over time, but some will not, you learn them as you go along. why do you need a code to define yourself by? would you loose your sense of identity without it?

    more so it is my understanding that there are as many ENFP 7s as their are ENFP 4s. what are they (and other non-4's) are getting out of this deal other then a sense of identity?



    that's a bad example because its just as easy to object to the holocaust and the war out of empathy for it's victims point of view, the only places where Fi and Fe really diverge are when their are no victims. those are the examples i am interested in understanding - the ones i can't relate to.
    that's a hard question to answer. i think there are many instances where i'm just speaking from my perspective without going as far to judge others who don't share it. nfps and maybe sfps in general can be some of the most nonjudgmental types and when pressed or debated on certain topics we feel strongly on still just hold true to our view without interest in changing yours. i personally feel everyone is entitled to their own truth...it doesn't make mine feel any less true to me. this is how i feel or what i feel is right...and by right...yes i guess you could say that to me it feels like the truth....and no...i don't have any sort of extra respect for anyone holding to values that i find absurd just for the mere fact that they have values. there's a difference between understanding how one could have such a value and agreeing with it or respecting it. i don't respect or agree with honor killing but understand how some could...i don't respect or agree with certain crazy(to me) religious practices but i understand how one brought up around it could feel differently...i also find myself even sympathizing with people who have done horrible things if given any info on horrible things done to them...

    so...as strongly as i feel about certain things being inherently right or wrong i also understand at a core level how everyones experience is different and that most everyone does what they feel is right based on the life they have had and lessons they have learned up until that point...know what i mean?
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    god, are you human? why do we even have to debate over this, its seems so obvious to me, i want to cry of frustration )
    exactly! that sense of distance and alienation goes both ways, and that's what i'm trying to solve here. i want to gain an understanding of Fi users so that when Fi surfaces it is something i can relate to and doesn't come across as white noise in the radio signal.

    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    I'm tired.
    you know, given that this is an online forum, you can pretty much answer whenever you feel like it.... there's no schedual or anything, there's no social pressure to be a good host or keep your peers entertained... which means there's rarely a reason for you to answer when your tired and want to get some sleep, or when your hungry and want to get a snack, in fact if you need to pee mid writing a post you can just go ahead to the bathroom and do it without escusing yourself. nobody will ever know...

    but in order to come up with examples that would apply to you i'd need to know your moral principles. otherwise i'd just be shooting a dart in the dark... someone will loose an eye.

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    so...as strongly as i feel about certain things being inherently right or wrong i also understand at a core level how everyones experience is different and that most everyone does what they feel is right based on the life they have had and lessons they have learned up until that point...know what i mean?
    ok, this is the right track right here: your life lessons. how did they gave rise to your principles?

    can you give me any examples?

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