[MBTI General] MBTI Questions that seemed like defects?

[Wolf]

Is it just me, or did some of the questions seem to be trying to figure out if you're depressed, defective, or otherwise? I answered honestly, even if I believed that aspect of myself was a defect.

Should I see aspects of myself as defects? If I fixed things I felt were/are defects would I be notably different? Are they defects? Is this just an effect of introversion and judging?

 

[Athenian200]

Well, actually, even if a particular trait were a defect, all types have certain defects and neuroses, so I think it's probably a relevant way of determining type. Agoraphobia could be an extreme symptom of inferior Se, for instance.

 

[Wolf]

I guess it was more the answers - some looked like admitting to them was admitting to a defect. I wonder if this skews results for some...?

Is it because the massive majority of extroverts and sensors considers them defects to the point that it even becomes ingrained in us that we're "defective"?

 

[Metamorphosis]

You scored INTJ so you can't be too defective.

Could you give some examples, though?

 

[proteanmix]

I guess it was more the answers - some looked like admitting to them was admitting to a defect. I wonder if this skews results for some...?

Is it because the massive majority of extroverts and sensors considers them defects to the point that it even becomes ingrained in us that we're "defective"?

You are incredibly bitter towards extroverts and sensors. There is unhealthy introversion and unhealthy extroversion, just make sure you don't fall into the unhealthy part and you should be fine. The "massive majority" extroverts don't view introversion as a personality defect.

 

[EffEmDoubleyou]

The main problem I had with the questions is that some of them had answer choices that could either all be true or all be false. For instance, "Do you prefer the company of others or to be alone?" Well, both, depending on my mood. Or, "Do you think it is better to be rational or compassionate?" It's not asking which I am, just which I think is better. I don't think anyone should be just one of those.

I left a good number of questions blank because of things like this.

 

[heart]

The "massive majority" extroverts don't view introversion as a personality defect.

Where is your proof on this? Just your own view and those around you, where you live and those around you who may be more educated on what introversion really is? How is that representative of the majority of extroverts out there in the world or at the very least the extroverts that introverted people like Wolf and I have come into contact with?

My own personal experience is that introversion is seen as a defect and many people have not minded telling me so right to my face during the course of my life.

My N has also been seen as defect.

Your disbelief about my real life experiences does not negate my experiences. That my experiences in life may differ from what you expect my experiences to have been does not mean I am "unhealthy" either. It just simply means that my personal experiences are not what you expect them to be or have some need for them to be.

 

[ygolo]

My own personal experience is that introversion is seen as a defect and many people have not minded telling me so right to my face during the course of my life.

I agree. In my experience my introversion has been attributed to being actually mute, to being abused or neglected as a child (I wasn't) to potentially being a serial killer in the making. And yes, I would call it a majority of people (and in more than one country even, both eastern and western).

For me it is not my Nness (people have both called me both a "dreamer" and "too practical"). The majority people seem to have the opinion that there is something "not quite right" about me. Don't know if that can be associated to any MBTI trait though.

For me. I would say it is my impulsiveness, and messiness that is another thing that almost everyone thinks is wrong with me. I suppose you can call this my "P". Still, I don't have a problem with decisiveness, though perfectionism and a bit of procrastination are issues.

Another thing that was disliked in general (but tolerate only in "technical" situations) is be being "nerdy". No non-nerdy kids were stuffed in lockers, had their heads flushed, or their faces smothered in piss.

Let's face it, there are certain personalities people (in general) like, and there are others people (in general) just tolerate at best.

It can be hard to find the people who like, say INxx's, or IxxPs for who they are. Generally, these people's lives are filled with criticism. To point of having nearly every conversation being about their "issues". One time I had 5 different people, in back to back, unrelated, conversations/lectures tell me what "my problem" was. I am sure that wasn't the record, but was the only time I kept track.

It has been the same three things all my life, and if I could still be me while changing these things I would have.

So maybe I am defective. Most people seem to think so.

 

[wildcat]

Well, actually, even if a particular trait were a defect, all types have certain defects and neuroses, so I think it's probably a relevant way of determining type. Agoraphobia could be an extreme symptom of inferior Se, for instance.

I was laughing when I read your post.
Thank you, the hilarious things are always welcome.
This is not in a way of a mockery.
I know you are intelligent.

The subject is not the object.
To confuse the subject and the object is the cardinal sin.

And the most common one.

The defect is not irrespective of the virtue.
The defect is the virtue.
The virtue is the defect.

The object is not the interpretor of the object.
The subject is the interpretor of the object.

Interpretation does not pertain to the object.
Interpretation pertains to the subject.

 

[proteanmix]

Where is your proof on this? Just your own view and those around you, where you live and those around you who may be more educated on what introversion really is? How is that representative of the majority of extroverts out there in the world or at the very least the extroverts that introverted people like Wolf and I have come into contact with?

My own personal experience is that introversion is seen as a defect and many people have not minded telling me so right to my face during the course of my life.

My N has also been seen as defect.

Your disbelief about my real life experiences does not negate my experiences. That my experiences in life may differ from what you expect my experiences to have been does not mean I am "unhealthy" either. It just simply means that my personal experiences are not what you expect them to be or have some need for them to be.

How am I supposed to prove my experiences any more than you can prove yours? You prove that most extroverts view introversion as a defect. Your views are based on your experiences and those of the people around you. Considering the number of extroverts and introverts are about 50/50, I hardly think your experiences as an extreme introvert (which both you and Wolf have admitted to being) is the norm for most introverts.

What "proof" I gather about introversion is when I go out and talk to people about it. I ask people how would they react in certain circumstances and how they've reacted in the past to glean out more introverted replies. That's how I gather my evidence. Do you go out and do the same thing for extroverts? My perception of events is not the only one I rely on. If I'm not sure, I go and ask other people what they think about it or what their experiences are or I start doing some research. I'm not that vain.

 

[Usehername]

How am I supposed to prove my experiences any more than you can prove yours? You prove that most extroverts view introversion as a defect. Your views are based on your experiences and those of the people around you. Considering the number of extroverts and introverts are about 50/50, I hardly think your experiences as an extreme introvert (which both you and Wolf have admitted to being) is the norm for most introverts.

What "proof" I gather about introversion is when I go out and talk to people about it. I ask people how would they react in certain circumstances and how they've reacted in the past to glean out more introverted replies. That's how I gather my evidence. Do you go out and do the same thing for extroverts? My perception of events is not the only one I rely on. If I'm not sure, I go and ask other people what they think about it or what their experiences are or I start doing some research. I'm not that vain.

My experience as an introvert who isn't at all shy (when I'm out with friends I'm sometimes very in the middle of the conversation/outgoing, etc.) is that it really takes some convincing that you actually do value staying at home on Friday nights more than going out, etc. They look at me suspiciously, but eventually figure out that I'm not lying. I don't think they devalue it on principle, but just don't have many good representations of "normal" people who are introverted--they notice people who go out and have fun on the weekend, and people who don't have any friends and are socially stunted. I was a new concept they had to work into their dichotomous framework.
But I'm not a shy introvert.

 

[Wolf]

How am I supposed to prove my experiences any more than you can prove yours? You prove that most extroverts view introversion as a defect. Your views are based on your experiences and those of the people around you. Considering the number of extroverts and introverts are about 50/50, I hardly think your experiences as an extreme introvert (which both you and Wolf have admitted to being) is the norm for most introverts.

53/47, but Introversion and Intuition comes in a mere 7%, meaning 4 types account for less than a third of the quarter they should. You just support what we've seen by acting the way you do.

What "proof" I gather about introversion is when I go out and talk to people about it. I ask people how would they react in certain circumstances and how they've reacted in the past to glean out more introverted replies. That's how I gather my evidence. Do you go out and do the same thing for extroverts? My perception of events is not the only one I rely on. If I'm not sure, I go and ask other people what they think about it or what their experiences are or I start doing some research. I'm not that vain.

Hardly an understanding position. Extroverts and introverts are pretty obvious if you're not some oblivious extrovert. The vast majority don't realize we even exist, they just think we're defective and tell us all these things we should do to "fix" ourselves. "Oh, just get out there and meet people", "There's nothing to it, just smile wider and show your teeth more"... I can play extrovert for short periods; it took me a number of years to learn how, and it's the only way you can get a job without help from an extrovert or connected introvert (the main way I found work for years), business is nearly impossible without at least playing it... This is why I located extroverts to sell projects for me.

I once was forced to go to a training thing for my introversion (not specifically, but as a result of). What was funny was that the teacher was the only extrovert I've ever seen that could identify an introvert just by looking at them - he split us up based on it, and tried to teach us how to look more extroverted so people would be more willing to interact with us when we wanted it. However, he still treated it as a defect, like essentially all extroverts.

 

[Wolf]

My experience as an introvert who isn't at all shy (when I'm out with friends I'm sometimes very in the middle of the conversation/outgoing, etc.) is that it really takes some convincing that you actually do value staying at home on Friday nights more than going out, etc.

Actually, this is the definition of introversion plus some kind of social problem. It could also be coincidence, or outside influences, but it's hard to say.

Introverts are happy to converse and do things with others, however, those others must be familiar. I'm happy to go out with a select group of friends, but I am shy and have difficulty telling people I'd like to do something with them, even friends. What they would realize is that I'm happy to be around my friends, just not perpetually around them and not in situations where I'm expected to be outgoing (no dances, no big parties, no family functions, etc). I have no difficulty with, say, working with my coworkers, but that's because they're all familiar. Everyone else complains about us because they don't know what we're doing "up there" in the secret lairs of the Engineering and Software departments (our office is called "The Cave" by the rest of the company, and our old CFO once said he wasn't sure what terrible things we're doing in "The Cave", since he thought it was uninviting and others said they were afraid to go in our office...I guess it doesn't help that the former residents were pretty harsh and difficult to get along with).

They look at me suspiciously, but eventually figure out that I'm not lying. I don't think they devalue it on principle, but just don't have many good representations of "normal" people who are introverted--they notice people who go out and have fun on the weekend, and people who don't have any friends and are socially stunted. I was a new concept they had to work into their dichotomous framework.
But I'm not a shy introvert.

The problem is that they associate people with social problems with introverts, while it's flat not true. I'm happy to be around familiar people.

You see, when I do something with another introvert it can be just as energizing as being alone. I love going for drives in remote places/mountains/etc with one or two other people, provided they don't bug me. This means they need to be similarly-introverted (my mother is much less introverted than I am, therefore she annoys the hell out of me and makes anything involving her more stressful), but I don't need to be alone to regroup/recharge.

 

[ptgatsby]

53/47, but Introversion and Intuition comes in a mere 7%, meaning 4 types account for less than a third of the quarter they should. You just support what we've seen by acting the way you do.

There are more introverts than extroverts (47-55% for I and 45-53% for E, average being 51% I and 49% E).

50% of 25-34% is 12.5 to 17% IN--

(Estimated Frequencies of Types - CAPT.org - the site redesign is chopping off the exact breakdown, so I didn't actually add up the specific amounts... but judging that the INF- is already 5-8%, I'd say "7%" is quite a ways off)

(Edit: Was able to copy and paste into Excel. IN-- is 9% to 17%)

 

[proteanmix]

53/47, but Introversion and Intuition comes in a mere 7%, meaning 4 types account for less than a third of the quarter they should. You just support what we've seen by acting the way you do.

Which is why I said "about 50/50." But if you want to quibble about numbers, I have more information that says that introverts actually outnumber extroverts. I'll give you the reference if you want. And if extroverts and introverts are approximately even in number, why does society find extroverted behavior more appealing? If there's strength in numbers introverts have just as much weight as extroverts do.

Jung initially struggled with a way to explain introversion without confounding it with intuition as you're doing right now. I'm talking about introversion, not being an IN.

Hardly an understanding position. Extroverts and introverts are pretty obvious if you're not some oblivious extrovert. The vast majority don't realize we even exist, they just think we're defective and tell us all these things we should do to "fix" ourselves. "Oh, just get out there and meet people", "There's nothing to it, just smile wider and show your teeth more"... I can play extrovert for short periods; it took me a number of years to learn how, and it's the only way you can get a job without help from an extrovert or connected introvert (the main way I found work for years), business is nearly impossible without at least playing it... This is why I located extroverts to sell projects for me.

Is "understanding" supposed to be my NF trigger word? Unless of course, I'm an oblivious extreme extrovert. :rolli: I maintain that you and Heart are extreme introverts, by your own admission. Your experiences are not the AVERAGE introverted experience. I'm not trying to invalidate your troubles, but I'm not going to accept them as what most introverts experience. And isn't the point of knowing about this stuff to work on becoming a more balanced person? I don't see how one becomes balanced by disdaining extroversion (or introversion for that matter) and stubbornly clinging to your supposition that extroverts are out to get you.

So basically I'm just letting you know that I am no longer going to stand for extroverts being the dumping ground for introverted social anxiety. No one makes you feel a certain way unless you let them. That's probably not going to go over well for me considering I'm about outnumbered 50 to 1 on the forum. I don't deny that your problems exist, but I could go on and on about how self-absorbed and uncooperative I find some introverts to be.

 

[indigo2020]

How am I supposed to prove my experiences any more than you can prove yours? You prove that most extroverts view introversion as a defect. Your views are based on your experiences and those of the people around you. Considering the number of extroverts and introverts are about 50/50, I hardly think your experiences as an extreme introvert (which both you and Wolf have admitted to being) is the norm for most introverts.

What "proof" I gather about introversion is when I go out and talk to people about it. I ask people how would they react in certain circumstances and how they've reacted in the past to glean out more introverted replies. That's how I gather my evidence. Do you go out and do the same thing for extroverts? My perception of events is not the only one I rely on. If I'm not sure, I go and ask other people what they think about it or what their experiences are or I start doing some research. I'm not that vain.

you proved what we are saying when you said that some are "extreme introverts" and this implies that being introverted is not ok. It's like if I say that someone is only midly depressed vs. extremely depressed. Depression is considered unhealthy, undesirable and unenjoyable. That is how I think extroverts see introvertsion.

I do not wish to be an extrovert. I am not one.

I have never heard an extrovert say they longed to be an introvert. I have heard introverts say they longed to be an extrovert. Why? It's because 75%of the population is extroverted and because it seems like it would be easier to be part of that majority. It has to do also with the fact that extroverts often see introverts as unhealthy or defective. You cannot know what it is to be an introvert when you are not one.

Also, do you ever use the phrase or have you ever heard the phrase, "that person is an extreme extrovert?" I certainly have not. Why? It's because extroversion is not viewed as an undesirable trait. Now, the person being loud or obnoxious is viewed as undesirable but it is not connected to extroversion by other extroverts. See, introverts often look at extroversion as an undesirable trait. Why can't extroverts just admit that they see introversion that way at times?

Do you as an extrovert, or have you ever been made to feel, that that being an extrovert is not ok, is undesirable or a defect?

Please take the introverts word on this.

 

[ptgatsby]

I have never heard an extrovert say they longed to be an introvert. I have heard introverts say they longed to be an extrovert. Why? It's because 75%of the population is extroverted and because it seems like it would be easier to be part of that majority.

The real statistics on I vs E are posted a couple times just a few posts up. It is quite the opposite - if there is one group that is larger, it is Introverts, not extroverts.

And yes, I use extreme extrovert all the time. Both for my father and for my GF's mother. We both do - I have heard this more than "extreme introvert"... and I am an extreme introvert.

 

[ygolo]

There are more introverts than extroverts (47-55% for I and 45-53% for E, average being 51% I and 49% E).

50% of 25-34% is 12.5 to 17% IN--

(Estimated Frequencies of Types - CAPT.org - the site redesign is chopping off the exact breakdown, so I didn't actually add up the specific amounts... but judging that the INF- is already 5-8%, I'd say "7%" is quite a ways off)

(Edit: Was able to copy and paste into Excel. IN-- is 9% to 17%)

I kind of thought that introverts were close to the same number as extraverts in U.S. (But not wanting to socialize much is still considered a defect I think.) Do you know how they compiled the numbers?

 

[ptgatsby]

I kind of thought that introverts were close to the same number as extraverts in U.S. (But not wanting to socialize much is still considered a defect I think.) Do you know how they compiled the numbers?

I can't find the link on their redesigned site, but I believe they have roughly one million entries, with it fairly split between form G and half Q (Q being step II). Might of been M though, now that I think about it. Gah. Well, it's about 40-40-10-mix between tests forms and environments. They don't report significantly differently which is why they mix them.

I believe there is a bias towards educational and workplace studies... However they've made a point of testing larger samples in highschools and such (I think it makes up about 10%). I think that is where the larger ranges come from, but again, we aren't talking large skews.

Unfortunately the more detailed information requires me to pony up cash... I figure the million odd database is close enough, however.

(edit: I didn't answer the question did I? They compile them as aggragate statistics from the administrators that perform the tests. You may be able to get a better answer from Rivercrow - she's involved in the actual testing I think.)

 

[heart]

.

Jung initially struggled with a way to explain introversion without confounding it with intuition as you're doing right now. I'm talking about introversion, not being an IN.

I find it hard in my own personal experiences to seperate out my experiences as an I with my experiences as an N.

I don't deny that your problems exist, but I could go on and on about how self-absorbed and uncooperative I find some introverts to be.

At least you are being honest here. Give the same to the IN when they relate their expriences. Nothing can move forward and no mutal understanding can be found without honesty. You try very hard to keep some IN on here from being totally honest about their own personal experiences with the ES world as IN and I have seen you try to invaidate their feelings and experiences on this.