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  1. #21
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    So basically I'm just letting you know that I am no longer going to stand for extroverts being the dumping ground for introverted social anxiety. No one makes you feel a certain way unless you let them. That's probably not going to go over well for me considering I'm about outnumbered 50 to 1 on the forum. I don't deny that your problems exist, but I could go on and on about how self-absorbed and uncooperative I find some introverts to be.
    What you seem to want is for IN to shut their traps about their negative experiences with the ES in the real life world because of how it makes you feel on a message board.

    Even though some of us have negative experiences, because you as Ex here are in a minority we have to keep quiet about our experiences with ES you don't even know so as your feelings won't be hurt, yet we aren't allowed to speak of those times in our lives when we have been hurt. Being hurt or misunderstood on a message board means more than being hurt or misunderstood in real life and Extroverts cannot bear up under finding out that Introverts have felt misunderstood by them. They are that fragile. They cannot even bear to see the words directed in a general way. Okay, got it.

    We can't complain about ES who complain about us in real life because ES here might get offended or hurt to know that we don't like being offended or hurt by other ES? What kind of sense does that make?

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Is "understanding" supposed to be my NF trigger word? Unless of course, I'm an oblivious extreme extrovert. :rolli: I maintain that you and Heart are extreme introverts, by your own admission. Your experiences are not the AVERAGE introverted experience. I'm not trying to invalidate your troubles, but I'm not going to accept them as what most introverts experience. And isn't the point of knowing about this stuff to work on becoming a more balanced person? I don't see how one becomes balanced by disdaining extroversion (or introversion for that matter) and stubbornly clinging to your supposition that extroverts are out to get you.

    So basically I'm just letting you know that I am no longer going to stand for extroverts being the dumping ground for introverted social anxiety. No one makes you feel a certain way unless you let them. That's probably not going to go over well for me considering I'm about outnumbered 50 to 1 on the forum. I don't deny that your problems exist, but I could go on and on about how self-absorbed and uncooperative I find some introverts to be.
    I don't know about Wolf or Heart. But I don't believe Extraverts in general are bad people. It was late, and I was tired, so my tone may have been rather off. I appologize.

    I do however believe that it is generally believed (by both extraverts and introverts) in aggregate (cultural pressures form in aggregate, not through the influence of one or two people) that being an introvert is a bad thing.

    I do think that there are a lot of intorverts that grow up with people trying to change their intoversion (which really just makes things worse).

    I don't know if it is average, or most or what. But it certainly was my own experience.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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  3. #23
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I don't know about Wolf or Heart. But I don't believe Extraverts in general are bad people. It was late, and I was tired, so my tone may have been rather off. I appologize.

    I do however believe that it is generally believed (by both extraverts and introverts) in aggregate (cultural pressures form in aggregate, not through the influence of one or two people) that being an introvert is a bad thing.

    I do think that there are a lot of intorverts that grow up with people trying to change their intoversion (which really just makes things worse).

    I don't know if it is average, or most or what. But it certainly was my own experience.
    I wonder if this phenomenon is universal or cultural? For example the Japanese culture gives me more of an introverted impression than say the American culture. It may just be an impression and introverts are misunderstood there too, but I wouldn't be surprised if the opposite were true in Japan with stereotypically extraverted behavior being looked down on more than stereotypically introverted behavior.

    From my own personal observations I think conflict tends to happen more if you are on an extreme aspect of your type. For example I am pretty close when it comes to E/I and also fairly close on T/F. I rarely have conflict with people because of these differences. However the P/J aspect seems to cause me the most frustration. Even though intellectually I realize the differences are simply a matter of type, I am such a strong P that I can't help but seeing "P type" behavior as good and "J type" behavior as bad. I do this instinctively until I stop and catch what I am doing.
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  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    I wonder if this phenomenon is universal or cultural? For example the Japanese culture gives me more of an introverted impression than say the American culture. It may just be an impression and introverts are misunderstood there too, but I wouldn't be surprised if the opposite were true in Japan with stereotypically extraverted behavior being looked down on more than stereotypically introverted behavior.

    From my own personal observations I think conflict tends to happen more if you are on an extreme aspect of your type. For example I am pretty close when it comes to E/I and also fairly close on T/F. I rarely have conflict with people because of these differences. However the P/J aspect seems to cause me the most frustration. Even though intellectually I realize the differences are simply a matter of type, I am such a strong P that I can't help but seeing "P type" behavior as good and "J type" behavior as bad. I do this instinctively until I stop and catch what I am doing.
    My early life was in an eastern country, and that one valued extraversion more (perhaps more so than the U.S.). I don't know about Japan in particular.

    I am close on the N/S and T/F and actually even sometimes on the J/P. I am extremely I. However, I am still not sure why it is good to be an I, or a P, let alone an IxxP.

    What could possibly be the value to others that I am an introvert instead of an Extravert?

    What could possibly be the value to others that I am a perciever instead of a judger?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I don't know about Wolf or Heart. But I don't believe Extraverts in general are bad people. It was late, and I was tired, so my tone may have been rather off. I appologize.

    I do however believe that it is generally believed (by both extraverts and introverts) in aggregate (cultural pressures form in aggregate, not through the influence of one or two people) that being an introvert is a bad thing.

    I do think that there are a lot of intorverts that grow up with people trying to change their intoversion (which really just makes things worse).

    I don't know if it is average, or most or what. But it certainly was my own experience.
    Yeah, I agree here. I don't think extroverts are "bad" people, but I do think that many of them, especially those not educated in Jung or MBTI, do think that introversion is a defect.

    I think a lot of social anxiety comes from introverts pushed too hard too early to try and extrovert to please those around them and then especially the abject feeling of failure they get if they cannot change to please others around them.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I don't know about Wolf or Heart. But I don't believe Extraverts in general are bad people. It was late, and I was tired, so my tone may have been rather off. I appologize.

    I do however believe that it is generally believed (by both extraverts and introverts) in aggregate (cultural pressures form in aggregate, not through the influence of one or two people) that being an introvert is a bad thing.

    I do think that there are a lot of intorverts that grow up with people trying to change their intoversion (which really just makes things worse).

    I don't know if it is average, or most or what. But it certainly was my own experience.
    I second this opinion. I am a definite introvert, and people continually try to change it. My introversion is seen by others most often as a mood or a put on and I'm told to "loosen up" or "just get out there and mingle" as if I'm having a snit and being obstinate. Don't they think I'd want to be more normal if I could? It would sure be a lot easier! However, I'll break ranks with some of the other introverts here and say that I don't see any malice in this attitude, and I try to take it in good humor. I'm sure that these people really do think it's just as easy as "getting out there" and they want to see me included. I don't think most of them understand how ingrained it is as a part of my personality.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by FMWarner View Post
    I second this opinion. I am a definite introvert, and people continually try to change it. My introversion is seen by others most often as a mood or a put on and I'm told to "loosen up" or "just get out there and mingle" as if I'm having a snit and being obstinate. Don't they think I'd want to be more normal if I could? It would sure be a lot easier! However, I'll break ranks with some of the other introverts here and say that I don't see any malice in this attitude, and I try to take it in good humor. I'm sure that these people really do think it's just as easy as "getting out there" and they want to see me included. I don't think most of them understand how ingrained it is as a part of my personality.
    Malice is a strong word. I don't think there is intentional malice towards introverts on the parts of most extroverts who try to change them, it is just they assume their way is the best way and that we are defective and that it is up to them to get us to change, rather than a mutual give and take for understanding between the two groups.

    No matter their motivations, the end results are the same and it does not excuse the insensitivity of the approach especially between people who have known each other for years.

    I do have a sense of humor about it to some degree, you just have to in order to get along with some of them but when it goes beyond a certain point, my tolerance is just over for it. I am not a saint and I am not a pyschologist. I am only human and I get weary of being pushed and misunderstood, etc.

    I have told people enough how it is for me. They are chosing to not understand that this is a ingrained part of me, they are chosing not to meet me half way in coming to an understanding between us. I don't think the choice comes from malice. I wish I understood where the choice comes from, but I don't. The closest I can come to is the idea that they simply cannot believe anyone else could be so different from themselves, a sort of egocenteric thing.

    I have found ESFJ's the least understaning of the extroverts and the ENTP the most understanding of the extroverts, but that is just my personal experience.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Malice is a strong word. I don't think there is intentional malice towards introverts on the parts of most extroverts who try to change them, it is just they assume their way is the best way and that we are defective and that it is up to them to get us to change, rather than a mutual give and take for understanding between the two groups.
    Some people (both extraverts and introverts) have had malice. Some people did not. I can assure you that the kids who smothered my face in piss because they thought I was too quite and nerdy had malice. Most adults I think were sincere, but the expectations that they created were probably more hurtfull long-term (I know they meant well).

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    No matter their motivations, the end results are the same and it does not excuse the insensitivity of the approach especially between people who have known each other for years.
    Again, I agree. I don't want to offend anyone by saying this. But I think I would be in much better shape today, if I hadn't been forced to try to change myself without success for so long.

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I do have a sense of humor about it to some degree, you just have to in order to get along with some of them but when it goes beyond a certain point, my tolerance is just over for it. I am not a saint and I am not a pyschologist. I am only human and I get weary of being pushed and misunderstood, etc.
    I mean, really, what base would someone have to draw from in terms of self-esteem if thorugh out life (and it continues today in the workplace) you are expected to be different from who you are just to get by. I know it's not done on purpose. But that doesn't change the fact that it is done.

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I have told people enough how it is for me. They are chosing to not understand that this is a ingrained part of me, they are chosing not to meet me half way in coming to an understanding between us. I don't think the choice comes from malice. I wish I understood where the choice comes from, but I don't. The closest I can come to is the idea that they simply cannot believe anyone else could be so different from themselves, a sort of egocenteric thing.
    "Egocentric" is a strong word. I think sometimes people are just so successful being themselves that they don't understand why others don't just do what they do and be happy. Why not be "responsible" like them? There was some talk about watching an "invalid on the dance-floor" and trying to correct them. Consider how mean it is actually to try to force such an invalid to do things he/she cannot do.


    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I have found ESFJ's the least understaning of the extroverts and the ENTP the most understanding of the extroverts, but that is just my personal experience.
    I have an incredibly small sample size. But oddly enough, in my life it has been that way too. Of course, my type guesses could be way off, and that doesn't mean anything bad about ESFJs in general or anything. Just my personal experience. That's it.

    Sometimes we just need to express the hurt from the past, and be validated that being hurt is a natural reaction, to move on. I don't think we are directing any hatred towards any person or any type by doing this. There are just words on a forum not aimed at anyone in particular.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  9. #29
    heart on fire
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    Sometimes we just need to express the hurt from the past, and be validated that being hurt is a natural reaction, to move on. I don't think we are directing any hatred towards any person or any type by doing this. There are just words on a forum not aimed at anyone in particular.
    Yes, totally agree again. These forms are one of the few places I think where IN can come together and share their hurts and such. I don't really see anything that wrong with them when they are done in the NT Rationale or the NF sections.

  10. #30
    Pareo cattus Natrushka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FMWarner View Post
    Don't they think I'd want to be more normal if I could?
    I think they've got to you, FM.

    This signature left intentionally blank.

    Really.

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