User Tag List

First 1234 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 33

  1. #11
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    3,823

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    How am I supposed to prove my experiences any more than you can prove yours? You prove that most extroverts view introversion as a defect. Your views are based on your experiences and those of the people around you. Considering the number of extroverts and introverts are about 50/50, I hardly think your experiences as an extreme introvert (which both you and Wolf have admitted to being) is the norm for most introverts.

    What "proof" I gather about introversion is when I go out and talk to people about it. I ask people how would they react in certain circumstances and how they've reacted in the past to glean out more introverted replies. That's how I gather my evidence. Do you go out and do the same thing for extroverts? My perception of events is not the only one I rely on. If I'm not sure, I go and ask other people what they think about it or what their experiences are or I start doing some research. I'm not that vain.
    My experience as an introvert who isn't at all shy (when I'm out with friends I'm sometimes very in the middle of the conversation/outgoing, etc.) is that it really takes some convincing that you actually do value staying at home on Friday nights more than going out, etc. They look at me suspiciously, but eventually figure out that I'm not lying. I don't think they devalue it on principle, but just don't have many good representations of "normal" people who are introverted--they notice people who go out and have fun on the weekend, and people who don't have any friends and are socially stunted. I was a new concept they had to work into their dichotomous framework.
    But I'm not a shy introvert.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  2. #12
    only bites when provoked
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    2,127

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    How am I supposed to prove my experiences any more than you can prove yours? You prove that most extroverts view introversion as a defect. Your views are based on your experiences and those of the people around you. Considering the number of extroverts and introverts are about 50/50, I hardly think your experiences as an extreme introvert (which both you and Wolf have admitted to being) is the norm for most introverts.
    53/47, but Introversion and Intuition comes in a mere 7%, meaning 4 types account for less than a third of the quarter they should. You just support what we've seen by acting the way you do.

    What "proof" I gather about introversion is when I go out and talk to people about it. I ask people how would they react in certain circumstances and how they've reacted in the past to glean out more introverted replies. That's how I gather my evidence. Do you go out and do the same thing for extroverts? My perception of events is not the only one I rely on. If I'm not sure, I go and ask other people what they think about it or what their experiences are or I start doing some research. I'm not that vain.
    Hardly an understanding position. Extroverts and introverts are pretty obvious if you're not some oblivious extrovert. The vast majority don't realize we even exist, they just think we're defective and tell us all these things we should do to "fix" ourselves. "Oh, just get out there and meet people", "There's nothing to it, just smile wider and show your teeth more"... I can play extrovert for short periods; it took me a number of years to learn how, and it's the only way you can get a job without help from an extrovert or connected introvert (the main way I found work for years), business is nearly impossible without at least playing it... This is why I located extroverts to sell projects for me.

    I once was forced to go to a training thing for my introversion (not specifically, but as a result of). What was funny was that the teacher was the only extrovert I've ever seen that could identify an introvert just by looking at them - he split us up based on it, and tried to teach us how to look more extroverted so people would be more willing to interact with us when we wanted it. However, he still treated it as a defect, like essentially all extroverts.
    I 100%, N 88%, T 88%, J 75%

    Disclaimer: The above is my opinion and mine alone, it does not mean I cannot change my mind, nor does it guarantee that my comments are related to any deep-seated convictions. Take everything I say with a whole snowplow worth of salt and call me in the morning, if you can.

  3. #13
    only bites when provoked
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    2,127

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    My experience as an introvert who isn't at all shy (when I'm out with friends I'm sometimes very in the middle of the conversation/outgoing, etc.) is that it really takes some convincing that you actually do value staying at home on Friday nights more than going out, etc.
    Actually, this is the definition of introversion plus some kind of social problem. It could also be coincidence, or outside influences, but it's hard to say.

    Introverts are happy to converse and do things with others, however, those others must be familiar. I'm happy to go out with a select group of friends, but I am shy and have difficulty telling people I'd like to do something with them, even friends. What they would realize is that I'm happy to be around my friends, just not perpetually around them and not in situations where I'm expected to be outgoing (no dances, no big parties, no family functions, etc). I have no difficulty with, say, working with my coworkers, but that's because they're all familiar. Everyone else complains about us because they don't know what we're doing "up there" in the secret lairs of the Engineering and Software departments (our office is called "The Cave" by the rest of the company, and our old CFO once said he wasn't sure what terrible things we're doing in "The Cave", since he thought it was uninviting and others said they were afraid to go in our office...I guess it doesn't help that the former residents were pretty harsh and difficult to get along with).

    They look at me suspiciously, but eventually figure out that I'm not lying. I don't think they devalue it on principle, but just don't have many good representations of "normal" people who are introverted--they notice people who go out and have fun on the weekend, and people who don't have any friends and are socially stunted. I was a new concept they had to work into their dichotomous framework.
    But I'm not a shy introvert.
    The problem is that they associate people with social problems with introverts, while it's flat not true. I'm happy to be around familiar people.

    You see, when I do something with another introvert it can be just as energizing as being alone. I love going for drives in remote places/mountains/etc with one or two other people, provided they don't bug me. This means they need to be similarly-introverted (my mother is much less introverted than I am, therefore she annoys the hell out of me and makes anything involving her more stressful), but I don't need to be alone to regroup/recharge.
    I 100%, N 88%, T 88%, J 75%

    Disclaimer: The above is my opinion and mine alone, it does not mean I cannot change my mind, nor does it guarantee that my comments are related to any deep-seated convictions. Take everything I say with a whole snowplow worth of salt and call me in the morning, if you can.

  4. #14
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Posts
    4,474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    53/47, but Introversion and Intuition comes in a mere 7%, meaning 4 types account for less than a third of the quarter they should. You just support what we've seen by acting the way you do.
    There are more introverts than extroverts (47-55% for I and 45-53% for E, average being 51% I and 49% E).

    50% of 25-34% is 12.5 to 17% IN--

    (Estimated Frequencies of Types - CAPT.org - the site redesign is chopping off the exact breakdown, so I didn't actually add up the specific amounts... but judging that the INF- is already 5-8%, I'd say "7%" is quite a ways off)

    (Edit: Was able to copy and paste into Excel. IN-- is 9% to 17%)

  5. #15
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Enneagram
    1w2
    Posts
    5,514

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    53/47, but Introversion and Intuition comes in a mere 7%, meaning 4 types account for less than a third of the quarter they should. You just support what we've seen by acting the way you do.
    Which is why I said "about 50/50." But if you want to quibble about numbers, I have more information that says that introverts actually outnumber extroverts. I'll give you the reference if you want. And if extroverts and introverts are approximately even in number, why does society find extroverted behavior more appealing? If there's strength in numbers introverts have just as much weight as extroverts do.

    Jung initially struggled with a way to explain introversion without confounding it with intuition as you're doing right now. I'm talking about introversion, not being an IN.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    Hardly an understanding position. Extroverts and introverts are pretty obvious if you're not some oblivious extrovert. The vast majority don't realize we even exist, they just think we're defective and tell us all these things we should do to "fix" ourselves. "Oh, just get out there and meet people", "There's nothing to it, just smile wider and show your teeth more"... I can play extrovert for short periods; it took me a number of years to learn how, and it's the only way you can get a job without help from an extrovert or connected introvert (the main way I found work for years), business is nearly impossible without at least playing it... This is why I located extroverts to sell projects for me.
    Is "understanding" supposed to be my NF trigger word? Unless of course, I'm an oblivious extreme extrovert. :rolli: I maintain that you and Heart are extreme introverts, by your own admission. Your experiences are not the AVERAGE introverted experience. I'm not trying to invalidate your troubles, but I'm not going to accept them as what most introverts experience. And isn't the point of knowing about this stuff to work on becoming a more balanced person? I don't see how one becomes balanced by disdaining extroversion (or introversion for that matter) and stubbornly clinging to your supposition that extroverts are out to get you.

    So basically I'm just letting you know that I am no longer going to stand for extroverts being the dumping ground for introverted social anxiety. No one makes you feel a certain way unless you let them. That's probably not going to go over well for me considering I'm about outnumbered 50 to 1 on the forum. I don't deny that your problems exist, but I could go on and on about how self-absorbed and uncooperative I find some introverts to be.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  6. #16
    Senior Member indigo2020's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Posts
    122

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    How am I supposed to prove my experiences any more than you can prove yours? You prove that most extroverts view introversion as a defect. Your views are based on your experiences and those of the people around you. Considering the number of extroverts and introverts are about 50/50, I hardly think your experiences as an extreme introvert (which both you and Wolf have admitted to being) is the norm for most introverts.

    What "proof" I gather about introversion is when I go out and talk to people about it. I ask people how would they react in certain circumstances and how they've reacted in the past to glean out more introverted replies. That's how I gather my evidence. Do you go out and do the same thing for extroverts? My perception of events is not the only one I rely on. If I'm not sure, I go and ask other people what they think about it or what their experiences are or I start doing some research. I'm not that vain.
    you proved what we are saying when you said that some are "extreme introverts" and this implies that being introverted is not ok. It's like if I say that someone is only midly depressed vs. extremely depressed. Depression is considered unhealthy, undesirable and unenjoyable. That is how I think extroverts see introvertsion.

    I do not wish to be an extrovert. I am not one.

    I have never heard an extrovert say they longed to be an introvert. I have heard introverts say they longed to be an extrovert. Why? It's because 75%of the population is extroverted and because it seems like it would be easier to be part of that majority. It has to do also with the fact that extroverts often see introverts as unhealthy or defective. You cannot know what it is to be an introvert when you are not one.

    Also, do you ever use the phrase or have you ever heard the phrase, "that person is an extreme extrovert?" I certainly have not. Why? It's because extroversion is not viewed as an undesirable trait. Now, the person being loud or obnoxious is viewed as undesirable but it is not connected to extroversion by other extroverts. See, introverts often look at extroversion as an undesirable trait. Why can't extroverts just admit that they see introversion that way at times?

    Do you as an extrovert, or have you ever been made to feel, that that being an extrovert is not ok, is undesirable or a defect?

    Please take the introverts word on this.
    People who get nostalgic about childhood were obviously never children.
    Bill Watterson, Calvin and Hobbes
    US cartoonist (1958 - )

  7. #17
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Posts
    4,474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by indigo2020 View Post
    I have never heard an extrovert say they longed to be an introvert. I have heard introverts say they longed to be an extrovert. Why? It's because 75%of the population is extroverted and because it seems like it would be easier to be part of that majority.
    The real statistics on I vs E are posted a couple times just a few posts up. It is quite the opposite - if there is one group that is larger, it is Introverts, not extroverts.

    And yes, I use extreme extrovert all the time. Both for my father and for my GF's mother. We both do - I have heard this more than "extreme introvert"... and I am an extreme introvert.

  8. #18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    There are more introverts than extroverts (47-55% for I and 45-53% for E, average being 51% I and 49% E).

    50% of 25-34% is 12.5 to 17% IN--

    (Estimated Frequencies of Types - CAPT.org - the site redesign is chopping off the exact breakdown, so I didn't actually add up the specific amounts... but judging that the INF- is already 5-8%, I'd say "7%" is quite a ways off)

    (Edit: Was able to copy and paste into Excel. IN-- is 9% to 17%)
    I kind of thought that introverts were close to the same number as extraverts in U.S. (But not wanting to socialize much is still considered a defect I think.) Do you know how they compiled the numbers?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  9. #19
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Posts
    4,474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I kind of thought that introverts were close to the same number as extraverts in U.S. (But not wanting to socialize much is still considered a defect I think.) Do you know how they compiled the numbers?
    I can't find the link on their redesigned site, but I believe they have roughly one million entries, with it fairly split between form G and half Q (Q being step II). Might of been M though, now that I think about it. Gah. Well, it's about 40-40-10-mix between tests forms and environments. They don't report significantly differently which is why they mix them.

    I believe there is a bias towards educational and workplace studies... However they've made a point of testing larger samples in highschools and such (I think it makes up about 10&#37. I think that is where the larger ranges come from, but again, we aren't talking large skews.

    Unfortunately the more detailed information requires me to pony up cash... I figure the million odd database is close enough, however.

    (edit: I didn't answer the question did I? They compile them as aggragate statistics from the administrators that perform the tests. You may be able to get a better answer from Rivercrow - she's involved in the actual testing I think.)

  10. #20
    heart on fire
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    8,457

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    .

    Jung initially struggled with a way to explain introversion without confounding it with intuition as you're doing right now. I'm talking about introversion, not being an IN.
    I find it hard in my own personal experiences to seperate out my experiences as an I with my experiences as an N.



    I don't deny that your problems exist, but I could go on and on about how self-absorbed and uncooperative I find some introverts to be.
    At least you are being honest here. Give the same to the IN when they relate their expriences. Nothing can move forward and no mutal understanding can be found without honesty. You try very hard to keep some IN on here from being totally honest about their own personal experiences with the ES world as IN and I have seen you try to invaidate their feelings and experiences on this.

Similar Threads

  1. Things that you like, but probably shouldn't
    By miss fortune in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 229
    Last Post: 01-12-2009, 10:44 AM
  2. Long-haired Vermonters who seem like they haven't
    By Bella in forum Popular Culture and Type
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 12-14-2008, 05:06 AM
  3. MBTI questions of a childish nature
    By Mort Belfry in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 04-24-2008, 11:07 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO