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[ENTP] development of Fe in ENTPs

sculpting

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So lots of thoughts in my fluffy head lately regarding ENTPs and issues with flirting, commitment, and maturity

I have several good case studies of ENTPs I watch. All are older-34-50.

Some seem very balanced and seem to use thier tertiary Fe to help them constrain some of the more impulsive tendencies of the Ne-Ti combination, especially with respect to social situations and monogmy.

One uses it to develop very good working relationships across departments, and gives a sense of trustworthiness and dependibility as well as sort of bowing to the system and the rules a bit more than a typical entp would.

One uses Fe to extend a "mothering" influence subconciously and seems able to nuetralize high tension situations very effectively this way.

Another-slimy-seems to lack the use of this function altogether, and possess a high degree of "moral relativity" and is not well liked.

1) When does this develop for you guys?
2) Is it painful/difficult as it develops? (ie trusting others and so on..)
3) Do you use it on purpose to influence others or does it emerge on its own at times?

thoughts?
 

nanook

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from where i stand, in my journey of observation, the actual functions of entp are NeTiSeFi. they are not interested in "mutual dependence"

"mothering" is a possible activity of Fi, as seen in FiNe people.
it's motivation is very ambivalent, though. like a 4's "direction of disintegration": 2. (enneagram talk)

an Fe person would feel save when nurturing, as this degree of pro-activity buys him/her an agent independence without loosing the benefits of relation (they are valued by Fe).

an Fi person would feel very invested and soon waisted, when nurturing for periods. they need to get something back.
something of native value to Fi.
 

sculpting

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"mothering" is a possible activity of Fi, as seen in FiNe people.
it's motivation is very ambivalent, though. like a 4's "direction of disintegration": 2. (enneagram talk)

an Fe person would feel save when nurturing, as this degree of pro-activity buys him/her an agent independence without loosing the benefits of relation (they are valued by Fe).

.

As an Fi I understand this type of intense mothering. If I like someone at all they sort of become part of my "clan" and I feel the need to take care of them. It is hard not to care for them. For her it is a little different as she just appears "mothering" in a very stable way on the surface. She can calm groups and organize them in a very Fe way with everyone being assigned a role and understanding what they need to do next. She is also good at conflict resolution due to her ability to neutralize discussions. Maybe mothering is not the best term for what she does.

So you think the tertiary is actually Se? I guess I dont understand as I thoght there were specific orders of how the functions go for different types.

Where is costrin when I need him? :)
 

nanook

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the function order i was referring to is from socionics, not from mbti.

well the judgment is yours, i can discuss without knowing the person, i just hope that, when you say "in a very Fe way" you actually compare this way to enfj and esfj and not just to a theoretical understanding of Fe


She can calm groups and organize them in a very Fe way with everyone being assigned a role and understanding what they need to do next.

ENTp are obsessed with how things work, and how they will work together.
 

Apollanaut

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Hi happy puppy!

Clearly, I am not an ENTP, but I have lived with one for 17 years and seem to feel the need to comment on my observations of him at present.

From my observations, Fe is indeed his third, (tertiary) function. In most people, function no 3 has a child-like quality to it. We use it to play and find relief from our normal approaches to life. Like a child, this function tends to be all-or-nothing - swinging from a hopeful, positive, enthusiastic attitude to a deflated, negative, pessimistic one, with very little in between.

My ENTP has quite a well-developed and obvious Fe function. In its positive expression, he enjoys company, makes friends easily and does indeed tend to "mother" other people. He loves to offer advice to help people sort out their problems, is VERY generous (with time, money and other things), and is an excellent host, who loves preparing creative meals for others.

In its more negative expression, he is super-sensitive to rejection (perceived or actual), becomes a lot more forceful and abrupt with his advice-giving, and can be super-critical and harsh when dealing with others.

In either mode, he projects his moods outwards for all to see. This can have very powerful effects on anyone remotely sensitive in the immediate vicinity, as he has quite a strong personality. His positive moods are infectious and can lighten the mood of everyone he comes into contact with. His bad moods are terrible to behold, even when he does his best to contain them. He has a withering "death stare" which can kill small animals at a hundred paces!

Contrary to the popular conception of NT-types as unemotional, he is anything but! He experiences his emotions very strongly indeed, he just prefers not to use them as a basis for making important decisions, relying on his Introverted Thinking logic instead.

He has a fair amount of awareness of the importance and value of Fe, even if he doesn't always understand it. He comes to me for advice on matters Fe, eg. when he can't make sense of another person's behaviour, or wants to rephrase something in a more diplomatic fashion.

Hope this helps!
 

Apollanaut

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Oh, and he is a firm believer in commitment and stability in relationships, but that could also be down to being a typical Taurus!
 

nanook

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moodiness suggests awareness of emotions which, in theory, could be maintained by both Fi and absence/inferiority of Fe. any strong Fe would not only try but succeed in avoiding direct explosive expression. also hurt enfj become demonstrative "sharp" (cold anger) but don't admit to be hurt or they may even deny anger. the more angy Fe gets, the more controlled it gets, but it may explode if it feels that this is strategically appropriate. explode in a controlled way.

what i read doesnt sound like anything i wouldnt expect from enfp
 

thisGuy

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WOW...these are somethings that i have never actually read on any ENTP mbti descriptions but reading this thread, they hit tooo close to home

My ENTP has quite a well-developed and obvious Fe function. In its positive expression, he enjoys company, makes friends easily and does indeed tend to "mother" other people. He loves to offer advice to help people sort out their problems, is VERY generous (with time, money and other things), and is an excellent host, who loves preparing creative meals for others.

mother people <- very much so, now that i think bout it...only with close friends n family though

my friends talk to me about their problems...i do listen and offer a solution to their problems
this seemed very unENTP like to me but Fe, you say?

In either mode, he projects his moods outwards for all to see. This can have very powerful effects on anyone remotely sensitive in the immediate vicinity, as he has quite a strong personality. His positive moods are infectious and can lighten the mood of everyone he comes into contact with. His bad moods are terrible to behold, even when he does his best to contain them. He has a withering "death stare" which can kill small animals at a hundred paces!

my moob does have a VERY powerful effect on people around me. ive been told i can single handedly raise the mood and heighten the excitement of people around me. sometimes of neighboring tables if we are at a restaurant celebrating friends' bdays.

same is true for when my mood is below 0. i would think i have the perfect poker face and then some friend would ask me if im alright...if im walking down the street, random people will clear the path....at first i couldnt figure out why, but now it makes perfect sense.
 

Samvega

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Contrary to the popular conception of NT-types as unemotional, he is anything but! He experiences his emotions very strongly indeed, he just prefers not to use them as a basis for making important decisions, relying on his Introverted Thinking logic instead.

He has a fair amount of awareness of the importance and value of Fe, even if he doesn't always understand it. He comes to me for advice on matters Fe, eg. when he can't make sense of another person's behaviour, or wants to rephrase something in a more diplomatic fashion.

Excellent example of an ENTPs feelings as well as the up sides to finding a partner that naturally balances each other.

My Fe is not my tertiary function, in fact it's last and unused. I come out with Ne/Ti in a basic tie with Fi and Se in the 3 and 4 slots. I'm very well aware of feelings both mine and others thus me liking how Apollanaut described her husband. In the end while I'm sensitive to others feelings they don't play the same roll in making a choice as my head, what's right/wrong, logical and so on does.

1) When does this develop for you guys?

It's not an egg that just hatches one day man. It's like planting a seed, always growing, in fact always there just not something we go to first.

2) Is it painful/difficult as it develops? (ie trusting others and so on..)

This is where my Ne/Ti kicks in, I trust others, if they can sneak it past my Ne/Ti good for them. Life as a rule is painful, this takes no more work than any other part of being a balanced person.

3) Do you use it on purpose to influence others or does it emerge on its own at times?

How are you going to influence people with Fe? I don't know, it's not a strong process of mine nor one I care to spend much time working on. It seems however like using Fe to influence people when you have Ti and Ne would be like taking a paper clip and rubber band to hunt elephants.

As a side note, god I'm a hypochondriac! I saw "flu" in "influence" and decided I was sick for real!
 

Venom

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ENTPs only have three functions:

Ne Ti Se. Inferior Fe and Fi in the same type is how the monster that is ENTP could ever even be conceivable.
 

Blackmail!

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Well, I'm supposed to be a typical ENTP in his mid thirties, and yes my tertiary is Fe, and is getting stronger with each new year. And the trend is the same with every ENTPs I know.

Apollanaut description is interesting, while I'd say Nanook and Babylon Candle are simply speaking of things they don't understand, that are obviously too alien for them. Plus, the Socionic model never made any sense to me (from my experience, it was proven plain wrong too many times to really bother discussing it).

And yes, ENTPs are social, emotional animals who suffer from wild, unpredictable streams of irrationality (Ne-dom). And we like it that way, because it keeps us creative and enthusiastic. :harhar:

Anyway, to keep the debate short:


1) When does this develop for you guys?


Only after I was 17 years old. Not really before.


2) Is it painful/difficult as it develops? (ie trusting others and so on..)

Initially, I developped my Fe thanks to painful events, but no, aside of them, the more this function develops, the more I feel balanced and at peace with myself.


3) Do you use it on purpose to influence others or does it emerge on its own at times?

Both.

Manipulating others is easy, and sometimes, well, quite interesting. I have to confess I do that quite often, especially at work (and feel no guilt about it). ENTP's iconic animal is the fox, you know. But Robin Hood is their patron saint.
That could also explain why I tend to be extremely generous even with perfect strangers. I feel the need to genuinely help, and there's no way I could explain why.
Since I have almost no Fi, it's not for moral reasons, I don't care about the means ("Morality makes light of morality" -> Pascal)... it just... happens!
 
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D'Artagnan

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^ A big +1!

Agreed; Apollonaut's description is pretty accurate and Blackmail hit the nail on the head. The only thing I could add is some clarity about Socionics, where there seems to be a little confusion. I really like Socionics (it gives a good picture of how functions are managed) and here's a quick description of an ENTps's Super-Id (the weakest) functions.

For a more comprehensive look (saves me writing the whole page): Functions - Wikisocion

If you meet someone using Se confidently, they're not an ENTp. I which mine was better but I know if it was, I wouldn't be this psychotype. I am an expert procrastinator, never doing a research task till the evening before. Ne is great for imagining possibilities but suffers when a task needs to be simply done and finished. There's a reason beyond laziness that ENTps never seem to finish any ambitious project...

While Fe is usually seen as emotional expression (including "mothering"), Fi deals the nature of inter-personal relations. It lets one person know what another is feeling through non-verbal cues, as well a general understanding of one's own emotions. This is why types with strong Fi can seem 'preachy' - they simply know what they feel about the subject at hand (whether good or bad). With PoLR Fi, ENTps will never really know how you're feeling if you don't 'tell' them. Sure, I can rationally deduce (Ti) that you are happy because you're smiling, but I can get into a lot of trouble if people aren't explicite with their feelings. Also I can find myself angry or sad without realizing it, feeling not quite right but unsure why. Screw you Fi! Its all so confusing...

ILE domain - Wikisocion

1) When does this develop for you guys?

Probably around age 18 - before then I was much meaner

2) Is it painful/difficult as it develops? (ie trusting others and so on..)

Mine rose out of 'wanting to be a good person', so its hard to look at yourself in that light. I'd say its harder to see other ENTps who haven't developed it yet, so much wasted potential! But I'm sure this is true whenever anyone perceives immature examples of their own type (and probably needs its own thread)...

3) Do you use it on purpose to influence others or does it emerge on its own at times?

I try hard to be a 'good' person - which means empathy, respect and buckets of Fe to make others feel comfortable. Pretty corny right? I also use it in the exact same manner Blackmail describes

robinhood1.jpg

ENTp: On an epic, never ending quest for attention hugs!
 

thisGuy

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^ chronological order for me is reversed from the two guys above me


i was born into a fairly traditional and cultural family...and i have also witnessed what lies outside the palace walls. i cite those reasons for me having a well-developed Fe way before puberty.

in retrospect, im more of an asshole now than i ever was before...till about 2-3 yrs ago, i actually empathized with people....i felt for them

yes, ive always tested as a ENTP and a strongly typed at that
 

nanook

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empathized with people....i felt for them

but you know that these are Fi buzzwords?!

(but despite buzzwords: whether its Fi or Fe actually depends on what kind of "feelings" of others someone take into consideration)
 

BlackCat

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Why do people talk about socionics on an MBTI based forum? The ENTPs we are talking about have NeTiFeSi.
 

nanook

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because people are more rational, interested in truth, and less ethnocentric, interested in mere "make believe"

>The ENTPs we are talking about
lol, we are talking about existing people, right?
 

BlackCat

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because people are more rational, interested in truth, and less ethnocentric, interested in make believe

??? What does this mean and how does it answer my question? I'm sure there are socionics forums somewhere if someone wants to talk about it.
 

Kasper

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BlackCat said:
Why do people talk about socionics on an MBTI based forum? The ENTPs we are talking about have NeTiFeSi.

BlackCat said:
??? What does this mean and how does it answer my question? I'm sure there are socionics forums somewhere if someone wants to talk about it.

It's all learning, why ignore something just because most aren't interested around here? The more perspectives you're given the better the understanding can be. I prefer many aspects of Socionics and there are others around here who do as well but I like this forum, so I'm here.

Anyway it's Typology Central now :D /smartass
 

sculpting

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D'Artagnan;583314If you meet someone using [B said:
Se[/B] confidently, they're not an ENTp.

This is interesting. My friend (the mothering entp) said that the crazy spastic partygoer was really an odd Ne-Se combination she used to distract her from having to understand her feelings. The feelings were there but they were just amorphous confusing overwhelming things that she chose to ignore rather than acknowledge.

Once acknowledged she tried to treat them as Fi and hide or supress them and then finally by logical step-by-step analysis of them grew into a more balanced Fe mindest. For her this happened in her mid twenties after a series of five miscarriges. An INTP friend helped her much here.

After working with the third slimy, lacking entp and a few really odd conversations with him I have come to conclude he has narcissitic personality disorder. I honestly really felt personality disorders were made up things or misunderstood biological mental illnesses that needed to be treated medically. However he really fits all the mannerisms and behaviors to a tee. I tried to give him some honest feedback and coaching about how his arrogance distracts from the team atmosphere and help understand what he wanted to get out of his current position and where he would like to see himself in a few years.

It was a very odd stilted conversation and I left feeling like I was talking to two different people at the same time. The conversation would take violent leaps back to why what he was doing was perfectly okay and how he had influence over others and he could use me to accomplish his goals. Being in a very Te mode, I systematically chopped each of his arguments down and explained why they were irrational.

Opps, didn't realize I was dealing with a crazy person. He bacame more and more defensive and more and more irrational. One side of him wanted to be the leader and get recognition and then I would confront him with how his people skills need to improve to be a better leader. Then he would derail the conversation and ask what any of it had to do with his position, and that people were irrelevant.

Outside of his cheating bahavior, I realized he had said some some crazy stuff in the past and had an issue with random lies, and just plain wierdness.

I didn't realize how messed up this guy really is though. I was standing next to a raging forest fire and I had no idea.

In conversations with the friend entp, she said she could have checked off about five of the nine symptoms of narcissism before the age of twenty, however grew out of most of it over time as she matured. This guy, at 45 is 9 out of 9.

It is kind of tragic.
 
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