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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    I think it really is Se, Synbarch had a post along those lines but now I can't find it anymore. All the ENTPs quiried picked up on Se given the descriptions but list it as fourth. My ENTP buddy says she used it to hide from having to face the Fe. She would distract herself by throwing herself into an activity fully as to not have to face the unfamiliar, weird emotions. It was an avoidance tactic. However the best parties involve mixing a few estps with a herd of entps.

    I dont know what an ENFP would use , assuming there is symmetry present. Se is so outside of my world. I dont get it at all.
    Hmm, yea, what I was referring to doesn't apply to that. I was thinking more along the lines of serious and detrimental situations/conditions which would eventually cur the Inferior into action. I'm guessing the Inferior is probably the furthest from consciousness.

    Can you perhaps think if you hide away from things that's required of your Te by ignoring it? OrÖ acting out against it seems slightly more understandable due to Fi. Do you get busy by attacking your environment during such moments to relieve how you feel? I see it like this for ENTPs, Ti has no way of creating an analysis of whatís being asked of them while Fe absolves its interest of others' so that the ENTP tries to ignore it by becoming busy through Se. ENFPsí Fi has no way of connecting to analyse and do the same of whatís asked of them so Te refuses to cooperate to the demands of othersí and through Se the ENFP busies themselves by attacking the environment around them. Ti pretends to work through Se, Fi pretends to work itself out through Se. Does that seem conceivable?

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Why must these unusual functional orders necessarily be classified as "illnesses" or otherwise abnormal/incorrect? What if someone's natural functional order is, say, Ne Fe Te Ti? I don't understand where you get the assumption that this is necessarily related to repressed or otherwise deficient functions for a given type. I remember JF saying that he identified about equally well with Ne, Ni, Te and Ti, for instance.
    The functions themselves aren't being classified as illnesses. It's due to our forced awareness upon such functions outside of our conscious control which manifests illness within us-- within our psyche. There is no functional "order" but, as I said, we gravitate towards the first two which are most conscious for us with the third for relief for the Dom or resistance against the Aux. We oscillate between all functions, strengthening whichever is necessary.

    And well, think about it. When you're not able to rely on (with your Aux) what supports your natural way of orienting within the world (with your Dom), you aren't gathering the necessary information (for your Dom).

    JF as in Jack Flak, eh? He has his own thread, necro him there. lol There's nothing wrong with identifying with the other functions but you don't rely on them like you would with the first two. Anyhoo, he had ideas regarding functions and type that didn't jive well with most people.

    I'm thinking how to better answer this but has it become a bit more understandable?

    Anyone else who cares to take a stab, have at this.

    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    But-in the instance of a personality disorder (theory 2), you can't just tell them to strengthen Ti or Fi in this case as you just make the problem worse. For NPD, you can't say go practice using Ti as they already think Ti is the total shit -in an "alter ego "sort of way I guess. They are terrified to let others challenge Ti, but does using it more fix that problem at all? Then they use the over strengthened Fe to disarm others and manipulate them so that the Ti is not attacked-even if the attack was imaginary.

    Instead Ti needs to be strengthened but also balanced somehow????
    Why would Ji think its the shit? Ji is self-deceiving at that point, as that's where the insecurity lies with. For ENTPs, it's their Fe where the fear reacts through because others are not giving them the appreciation they think is warranted of their ideas (of Ti)--so they reciprocate against people with Fe. Charm to disarm; Fe manipulates to whittle the other's Ti. "It's not Ti's fault." It never is... But once they refocus Ti, they will become rational and impartial again, observing their flawed ideas and correcting them instead of just reacting poorly with Fe rejecting the slights (real or imagined).

    ENFPs' Te is where the fears reacts through because others are not giving them the respect they think is warranted of their feelings (of Fi) -- so they reciprocate against people with Te. Blaze to amaze; Te asserts to overwhelm the other's Fi. "It's not Fi's fault." It never is... But once they refocus Fi, they will become rational and fair again, observing their flawed ideas and correcting them instead of just reacting poorly with Te rejecting the slights (real or imagined).

    The only difference b/w them and NPD/BPD is that, I suspect, ENTPs are well aware of what they're doing whilst ENFPs are not. In that, ENTPs know they're manipulating their audience because they mean to while ENFPs aren't aware they're being domineering towards people because they don't mean to. Although, with BPD one can become aware after a time but that doesn't necessarily help but sometimes makes it worse because they'll just keep reaching out instead of reaching within.

    You said something interesting here:
    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy
    They are very insecure about the secondary function and are very hypersensitive to either emotional (Fi) or intellectual (Ti) criticism.
    So would not better development remove the hypersensitivity to perceived slights against their Ji and poor reaction through their Je, hmm?
    Last edited by zarc; 03-27-2009 at 11:13 AM. Reason: >_> >_> >_>''

  2. #82
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Zarc, I need to think a bunch on this stuff.

    But I was reading a bit of beebe this morning and a Theory 3 popped up.

    He mentions the prescence of an entire set of alter personality hiding inside each person composed of the remaining four functions.

    Normal ENTP=hidden INTJ
    Normal ENFP=hidden INFJ

    except the hidden one is all kinds of messed up, given its root in the unconcious. So a very insecure auxiliary function might lead to to two problems-an overdeveloped tertiary and actual real time play value of the shadow personality. Crazy with a capital C.

    When theory 2 fails to protect they resort to the theory 3 approach as a back up protective mechanism, thus the dramatic shifts in behavior seen in both NPD and BPD.

    Like I said I need much thought on this but the actual data fits this model which makes me latch onto it. freaking wierd!!

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    Zarc, I need to think a bunch on this stuff.
    No worries, let it simmer. We'll cook when ready.

    except the hidden one is all kinds of messed up, given its root in the unconcious. So a very insecure auxiliary function might lead to to two problems-an overdeveloped tertiary and actual real time play value of the shadow personality. Crazy with a capital C.
    Funny, I've often gone mad with a captial Z and I've noticed it's due to Ni-Ti. Ni-gh High madness which grips me Ti-ghtly. /corn

    I'll have to look into Beebe's stuff, I'm less familiar with him. What were you looking at in particular?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apollanaut View Post
    Nothing really, I suppose I just didn't like the way it was worded as a solution to a problem (I can be a bit of a pedant at times).
    lol I see.

    For most people, the tertiary would be the next function to naturally develop, followed by the so-called inferior. The point is that we can now do this consciously instead of reflexively of defensively.
    I donít think the Inferior is so-called but too-called when one is unprepared for itÖ

    To use myself as an example yet again (I'm sure you're aware that we INFJs are prone to make our points using personal anecdotes) I deliberately work on expanding my Ti skills by tackling puzzles, crosswords and by playing games which require tactical skills (Ti is good at tactics, while Te is better for strategy - at which I suck BTW). This is not a chore, I really enjoy solving puzzles - the tertiary is child-like, remember, and loves to be let out to play.
    (Very. As are others.) Reminds me, I haven't played certain games in some time.

    Another Te/Ti comparison (sorry, I'm going off on tangents again, but what-the-hey?) is with self-assembly furniture.

    The instruction manual is usually written, of necessity, in Te language: step-by-step logical instructions that are the same for each model.

    However, as we all know, there is always some little glitch which isn't covered by the manual, a missing piece, a hole that hasn't been drilled out properly or something which got broken in transit. Sorting these out requires Ti - situational logic which enables us to solve one-off problems.
    Do as you please, though note that only we few NFs have remained to sift through the dirt. I like your examples, they've given me thought, thanks.

    Next comes function number four.

    I am at the stage of life where my 4th Se function is becoming more and more available for conscious use. I can now switch it on at will - I try to do this whenever I am outdoors so that I can notice all the rich details I used to tune out.
    I find Se for me is developed well when Iím consciously using it and I can be quite aggressive to prove to myself mostly, never mind others, that Iím doing it well (such as playing sports or doing physical activities), otherwiseÖ My ESFP sis finds me amusing and pokes at me for not being aware of details. Today, for ex., there was this dog on TV missing one leg. She informed me that my notice was almost 5 or so minutes after the fact. Or watching movies itís quick for her to note discrepancies with incorrect placement of objects etc that have been erroneously moved in the next picture slide. Sheíll pause to show me and itís crazy to me that she can spot some of the things she does. Itís fascinating to note such differences.

    I am taking driving lessons for the first time in my life.
    Ha. I still canít drive, for lack of interest. The joke is my sis (now 16) will get her license before me and the jokeís been running on for years.

    None of my Se development could have happened without Fe - learning from other people by observation, training or by simply asking someone how they do it, instead of struggling with it on my own.

    I've a long way to go before I can even begin to properly develop my four Shadow functions, but when I feel the need to do so, I know to use my Fe first: to find someone who is skilled in these functions and ask them for advice and guidance, rather than waste precious time, effort and energy trying (and probably failing) to figure them out for myself.
    Yea, big time troubles asking for help.

    This, to my mind, is the true value of knowing one's type. As Lenore Thomson said, rather than placing us into one of 16 narrow little boxes, applied type knowledge actually allows us to break free from the trap of compulsively following the stereotyped path dictated by our dominant function. Instead, it provides us with a roadmap and a practical set of tools for increasing our options and realising more and more of our innate potential.

    Whether we choose to do this or not is, of course, entirely up to us!
    I wholeheartedly agree. People often mistake MBTI as boxing people but I've always viewed it as learning to escape the limitations we've boxed within our unconscious. When we learn how to develop our strengths and work on our weakness we transcend the box.

  4. #84
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    Father can you jear me?
    How have I let you down?
    I curse the day that I was born
    and all the sorrow in this world

    Let me take you to the herding ground
    where all good men are trampled down
    Just to settle a bet that could not be won
    between a prideful father and his son

    Will you guide me now for I can't see a reason
    for the suffering and this long misery
    What if every living soul could be upright and strong?
    Well then I do imagine

    There will be (sorrow)
    Yeah there will be (sorrow)
    And there will be sorrow no more

    When all soldiers lay their weapons down
    or when all kings and all queens relinquish their crowns
    Or when the only true messiah rescues us
    from ourselves it's easy to imagine

    There will be (sorrow)
    Yeah there will be (sorrow)
    And there will be sorrow no more

    There will be (sorrow)
    Yeah there will be (sorrow)
    And there will be sorrow no more

    Yeah there will be (sorrow)
    Yeah there will be (sorrow)
    And there will be sorrow no more

  5. #85
    in-game Gamine's Avatar
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    Trying to work on Fe, it's good in spurts but not for extended periods of time. It's like Play-doh. I can play with it for a while, but after I make some sweet stuff out of it, it starts getting crusty and dry and funny smelling.
    "Beware Those Who Are ALWAYS READING BOOKS" - Bukowski

  6. #86
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwinkleToes View Post
    Trying to work on Fe, it's good in spurts but not for extended periods of time. It's like Play-doh. I can play with it for a while, but after I make some sweet stuff out of it, it starts getting crusty and dry and funny smelling.
    That's hysterical!! Don't keep it in the fridge too long!

    Twinkle you sound pretty normal to me. Me and Zarc have totally deviated into the more odd, under developed ENTPs and I think have scared off all the NTs in general! (Sorry guys!) I really adore normal ENTPs and they make my brain all happy and fun. My favorite entp says we hang out together cause we are too weird to hang out for long with other people. Others can take us in short bursts but then we exceed the weird quotient and have to move to the next person.

    Also having fun hyperanalyzing the entps as the symmetry helps me learn about myself!

    Zarc here is the link to a Beebe article:
    http://typeinsights.com/FreeArticles...ctionmodel.pdf

    It blabs mostly about archtypes and stuff but at the end it shows a diagram of the "shadow" personality.

    I have been a little confused about the order of the four lower functions as Lennorre put them in the middle which sounded really, really off to me. Beebe seems to group them as a single functioning unit that lives under the normal personality-However I am not clear if he thinks they function as a group or not-so the rest of this is my thoughts!!!

    So for an ENTP that would be a shadown INTJ-lets call him sINTJ. sINTJ has none of the good, wonderful INTJ stuff but all the negative crap amplified. Under massive stress and when other defenses fail, this whole shadow personality gets put forth.

    I'd say it's a load of shit except that's exactly what folks with NPD do-they have a "super-ego" that they place all their energy on building up as a front. The real them hides somewhere. Not sure about BPD and a cooresponding sINFJ.

    Again, all theory except that is exactly what thie slimy entp does. When comfortable around chicks or out drinking he is superamplified Ne-Fe-Ti with crazed amounts of Se thrown in and is overly charming and manipulative.(theory2) When around other scientists and in hyperdefensive mode, he becomes this arrogant, cold, callous jerk, pathologically lies, trashes others ideas, and is exceptionally intolerant and defensive. (theory 3-sINTJ) Me and the entp buddy above just assumed he was a really insecure INTJ for a long, long time, right up until he hit on me and I saw him social settings. Also I could never "tickle" his Fi like I could other INTJs so he came across as ackward and sort of stand-offish.

    thoughts?

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by zarc View Post

    Funny, I've often gone mad with a captial Z and I've noticed it's due to Ni-Ti. Ni-gh High madness which grips me Ti-ghtly. /corn
    I, too, have my mad moments but it seems to be more like when Fi goes off the deep end. I will diligently excercise my Fi!!! Even today just being more midful of the Fi-Te balance I noticed changes in the way I am approaching situations. It is so odd as I really though Fi was coasting along doing all right but it needs some work huh?

    I still dont think the tertiary is as quite as evil as lenorre makes it out to be but it most certainly needs balance.

    Zarc you are awesome! Apallo too!

  8. #88
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    Theory 2 (more along lenorre Thompson's book):

    Normal ENTP: Ne, Ti, Fe
    Normal ENFP: Ne, Fi, Te

    NPD ENTP: Ne, Fe, Ti
    BPD ENFP: Ne, Te, Fi

    In these cases the person is very undeveloped in the second function due to the Ne pulling them way outside of themselves, so they use the tertiary defensively but poorly. They are very insecure about the secondary function and are very hypersensitive to either emotional (Fi) or intellectual (Ti) criticism.
    While I'd say that while it's an interesting theory, it doesn't seem to fit especially well with my own experience.

    I would rather say that I have developped my own Fe because I was constantly challenged about being insensitive, cold as ice during my teen years. I never was challenged intellectually, I'd rather say it's the opposite. As a matter of fact, most people were already amazed by my intellectual prowesses (as a child), so this wasn't the real problem.

    Lot of my relatives complained that I would never listen to them, that I would remain very immature, that I would behave like a kid or a narcissistic jerk. Each day, I had to listen to this, how humanely flawed I was. The truth was I didn't care about anybody but me, about my new daily discoveries and theories, about what was going on within my head and only that.

    But anyway, those complaints eventually made me feel very awkward. I didn't know how to behave properly. And it was painful to hear this, because as a true extrovert, I also felt the need to speak, to have an audience, to discuss about anything. Contempt or worst, silence became hard to bear.

    So I changed. I tried to look more open, more flexible and adaptable, to make discussions more pleasing. Again, I was that desperate to find a real audience, or to be understood at last. That's how my Fe started to develop. And the miracle is that after many years, I eventually begin to feel a genuine appreciation for others, for what they really are. And like I already said, by now, most people don't have to ask me to help them, I would do that on instinct, without expecting anything in return.
    If I don't help, I feel awkward, just like the immature teen I once was.

    Developping my Fe has allowed me to more efficiently share my enthusiasm, to direct it more appropriately, and to even really listen what people have to say. I had to learn that, but I think it worked, sometimes far too well.

    ---

    So somehow, I'd have an entirely different theory. For me, natural Fe-users are like my tutors. They teach me the ways of life, how to go out of adolescence and hence, I feel attracted to them, I have to learn more from them, to observe how they behave and why.

    The purpose never was to protect my Ti, but simply to grow up, to evolve, to communicate more effectively. And Fe is a kind of social intelligence in itself, you have to respect it just like you would respect any other intellectual functions. Together, they form a mutually beneficial dynamics.

    I'd rather say that Fe is a way to tame the wild dom-Ne that is boiling inside me. You know, the Ne-Ti axis has a relentless thirst for knowledge that can never be quenched otherwise. But when I use my Fe, I feel quieter, more relaxed. I don't need to talk, and talk, and talk as much as during my past years. Sometimes, a nice, simple, mute smile can tell more.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by FemmeUrbane View Post
    Hey! That's just me!!! :steam:
    I know, sweetie. And don't ever stop!!!!

  10. #90
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    While I'd say that while it's an interesting theory, it doesn't seem to fit especially well with my own experience.

    I would rather say that I have developped my own Fe because I was constantly challenged about being insensitive, cold as ice during my teen years. I never was challenged intellectually, I'd rather say it's the opposite. As a matter of fact, most people were already amazed by my intellectual prowesses (as a child), so this wasn't the real problem.

    Lot of my relatives complained that I would never listen to them, that I would remain very immature, that I would behave like a kid or a narcissistic jerk. Each day, I had to listen to this, how humanely flawed I was. The truth was I didn't care about anybody but me, about my new daily discoveries and theories, about what was going on within my head and only that.

    But anyway, those complaints eventually made me feel very awkward. I didn't know how to behave properly. And it was painful to hear this, because as a true extrovert, I also felt the need to speak, to have an audience, to discuss about anything. Contempt or worst, silence became hard to bear.

    So I changed. I tried to look more open, more flexible and adaptable, to make discussions more pleasing. Again, I was that desperate to find a real audience, or to be understood at last. That's how my Fe started to develop. And the miracle is that after many years, I eventually begin to feel a genuine appreciation for others, for what they really are. And like I already said, by now, most people don't have to ask me to help them, I would do that on instinct, without expecting anything in return.
    If I don't help, I feel awkward, just like the immature teen I once was.

    Developping my Fe has allowed me to more efficiently share my enthusiasm, to direct it more appropriately, and to even really listen what people have to say. I had to learn that, but I think it worked, sometimes far too well.

    ---

    So somehow, I'd have an entirely different theory. For me, natural Fe-users are like my tutors. They teach me the ways of life, how to go out of adolescence and hence, I feel attracted to them, I have to learn more from them, to observe how they behave and why.

    The purpose never was to protect my Ti, but simply to grow up, to evolve, to communicate more effectively. And Fe is a kind of social intelligence in itself, you have to respect it just like you would respect any other intellectual functions. Together, they form a mutually beneficial dynamics.

    I'd rather say that Fe is a way to tame the wild dom-Ne that is boiling inside me. You know, the Ne-Ti axis has a relentless thirst for knowledge that can never be quenched otherwise. But when I use my Fe, I feel quieter, more relaxed. I don't need to talk, and talk, and talk as much as during my past years. Sometimes, a nice, simple, mute smile can tell more.
    Wow. I identify with a lot of that. Nice.

    This is the rational purpose for Fe. I've only realized it even existed within the last couple of years. I suspect this may be a big issue for many ENTPs, and it probably takes some a very long time to figure it out.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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