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  1. #1
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Default s(t)imulated vs. zarc: ENTJs vs. ENTPs <split>

    Basically ENTJs are obsessive planners and ENTPs are obsessively anti-plan.

    In a social setting it can be hard to tell the difference. We're both condescending jerks that have no problem calling you out on anything we perceive as unintelligent or incorrect, we love to prove our point and we love to show off our mental skills and abilities to everyone.

    Moreso than other J/P dichotomies, ENTPs are distinguishable from ENTJs because we're constantly making it up as we go along. We can get into a heated argument fairly easily but we'll drop it and swap sides or completely reverse positions once the next interesting/fun task comes up.

    Interest in following through is a huge difference. ENTJs are a lot more methodical. They're typically concerned with productivity and efficient use of time, which ENTPs don't give two shits about. ENTP would rather go off on an Ne rant creating all kinds of new and amusing ideas and entertaining people in the process, then discard that idea as soon as it gets boring.

    ENTJs make better group leaders. They're harder workers in most cases, because the only time ENTPs are hard workers is when the "work" is actually enjoyable or otherwise interesting--if it's not, expect nothing more than the bare minimum contribution, along with an occasional sarcastic complaint about how uninteresting the task is.

    I think the best way to sum it up is that ENTPs are interested in idea creation and ENTJs are interested in actively putting those ideas to good use. For ENTPs, once the idea has been created and served its purpose by providing a brief escape from boredom, it's hardly of any real use or importance anymore. For ENTJs, forming the idea and the plan is only the beginning, a precursor to accomplishing some broader strategic goal.

    ENTJs are also more insistent upon their specific conceptions of how abstract theory should be viewed and applied. Both types will go off on rants about the "proper" way to view their pet theories/interests, but ENTPs are doing it to break the mold/generate entertainment for themselves and others, and actually aren't that dogmatic about adhering strictly to these conceptions. When ENTJs do it, they're genuinely pissed off most times, because theoretical incorrectness is both irritating and offensive.

    There's this famous ENTJ poker player, Phil Hellmuth, for instance, who gets seriously angry when he sees people play hands poorly and get lucky to win anyway. He's very outwardly vocal about correcting the theoretical mistakes of others--ENTPs do this too, but mostly just to show off their own knowledge and abilities. Part of us wants to win, but part of us is also hoping you'll come back with an intelligent response so that the exchange can continue providing food for thought. We revel in ambiguity; the tactics involved in the exchange itself tend to take precedence over the actual content of the exchange.

    Not so for ENTJs: when they get deeply into an argument, they are on a personal crusade against inefficiency.

    For another example, take standup comedians George Carlin (ENTP) and Bill Hicks (ENTJ.) They have similar angry-rant styles, but Carlin's motives are harder to discern. ENTPs' motives have a reputation for being difficult to read, because they're so busy improvising by the seat of their pants that half the time they're not even sure what their own motives are. They love to swap sides in arguments just to challenge themselves and their own analytical abilities.

    With ENTJs, there's no time to fuck around with devil's advocate or saying things you don't mean. You know where they stand. Everyone knows where they stand, because they make it known forcefully. They give a much stronger, "Don't trifle with me" vibe.

    ENTPs, on the other hand, enjoy trifling and being trifled with. That's part of the fun! Where will this trifling lead? We don't know, and we don't care, as long as it's not boring.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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    StoP it, for you know not what you speak.. But I know youíre trying to be helpful, and thatís very commendable of you, but no. lol Lots of fun no. And don't cop out by saying this post is too long either! I've got Ni on you.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    ENTPs are obsessively anti-plan.
    They are, if obsessive at that, calculated creatures. Pro-plan. And never without a spare. Unless you've Ti-red them out (congrats!).

    In a social setting it can be hard to tell the difference. We're both condescending jerks that have no problem calling you out on anything we perceive as unintelligent or incorrect, we love to prove our point and we love to show off our mental skills and abilities to everyone.
    Being ENTP does not a condescending jerk make (nor ENTJ either). Stop stereotyping. (And you're not a jerk either, or not always, I've seen you around the board. People don't like jerks and I'm sure people like you. You seem fun AND helpful. Doesn't matter if I think what you're saying is wrong either because you were trying to be helpful to musttry. Weren't you? ) But if an ENTP is a condescending jerk, they donít do it by calling you out but by showing you up. Way up so that you donít realise it until youíre face down. There is no love of proving a point but in proving the other person wrong. And they could care less about showing off to everyone. They love showing off to themselves. Everyone else is just incidental (unless they care about you so they will show you for some Fe-exchange, though they might deny they need it. They do. They've still got hearts and the stuff that that usually entails).

    Moreso than other J/P dichotomies, ENTPs are distinguishable from ENTJs because we're constantly making it up as we go along. We can get into a heated argument fairly easily but we'll drop it and swap sides or completely reverse positions once the next interesting/fun task comes up.
    If by saying ENTPs get into heated arguments that they too are heated by it and then cool off shortly, then no. ENTPs rarely get upset by anything. Ti says, "What would be the point?"

    ENTP would rather go off on an Ne rant creating all kinds of new and amusing ideas and entertaining people in the process, then discard that idea as soon as it gets boring.
    If the idea sprouted from their preciously precocious Ne then that idea was never boring and they wouldnít scrap it. Theyíd keep it in mind if it didnít work out or alter it maybe tomorrow or next Tuesday but never scrap. They like scraps, even yours. What they might do is forget it in favour of their next one and that other new one and...

    ENTPs are hard workers is when the "work" is actually enjoyable or otherwise interesting--if it's not, expect nothing more than the bare minimum contribution, along with an occasional sarcastic complaint about how uninteresting the task is.
    ENTPs donít complain. Theyíre more creative than that. And they wouldnít give you the satisfaction of knowing either.

    For ENTPs, once the idea has been created and served its purpose by providing a brief escape from boredom, it's hardly of any real use or importance anymore.
    Ne isnít used to escape boredom. Itís too important for that. Itís their key to existence, unlocking the possible power of the mind over matters. They sometimes escape boredom by F(e)ucking with people, though. Itís not always meant to be harmful either.

    ENTJs are also more insistent upon their specific conceptions of how abstract theory should be viewed and applied. Both types will go off on rants about the "proper" way to view their pet theories/interests, but ENTPs are doing it to break the mold/generate entertainment for themselves and others, and actually aren't that dogmatic about adhering strictly to these conceptions. When ENTJs do it, they're genuinely pissed off most times, because theoretical incorrectness is both irritating and offensive.
    Um. ENTPs wouldn't be dogmatic, eh poor choice of word, but they'd hold Ti-ght to their theories/ideas. Cuz itís the right one. AndÖ ďproperĒ way? Sorry, boyo, but they donít gots Te in their system. Leave it to the TJs. Or maybe an EFP when you catch them on a bad day... Btw, JIC youíre not receptive at this point, I hope itís not a bad day for you because Iím being thoughtful in trying to show you.

    He's very outwardly vocal about correcting the theoretical mistakes of others--ENTPs do this too, but mostly just to show off their own knowledge and abilities.
    ENTPs could care less about other peopleís mistakes unless it directly effects them. Maybe. No, yes, actually. It's not good to forget they're people with feelings too. Just don't tell it to them, they'll become speechless (Really).

    Part of us wants to win, but part of us is also hoping you'll come back with an intelligent response so that the exchange can continue providing food for thought. We revel in ambiguity; the tactics involved in the exchange itself tend to take precedence over the actual content of the exchange.
    There is no care for winning. Just being right. Ambiguity? ÖhehÖ Ti loathes such a word. You couldnít annoy an NTP more than by being ambiguous. About anything. Hmm, for them to want to exchange with you there must be a: Precedence set. Content match. Game on, factuality. Otherwise, Ne-xt.

    For another example, take standup comedians George Carlin (ENTP) and Bill Hicks (ENTJ.) They have similar angry-rant styles, but Carlin's motives are harder to discern. ENTPs' motives have a reputation for being difficult to read, because they're so busy improvising by the seat of their pants that half the time they're not even sure what their own motives are. They love to swap sides in arguments just to challenge themselves and their own analytical abilities.
    Georgey boy is ENTJ. He had such Te Se anger. Explosive rant (-Se) tasker (Te) masker (Ni). ENTPs donít rant angrily. Louis CK is ENTP. >_> They also donít improvise like SPs. They calculate like NTs. Boyo, címon! They are spontaneous, though, which is not the same as improvising. And so help anyone if they donít know their own motives cuz thatís when their Fe is on the rag.

    ENTPs, on the other hand, enjoy trifling and being trifled with. That's part of the fun! Where will this trifling lead? We don't know, and we don't care, as long as it's not boring.
    Those (who are) arrogant bastards think theyíre too grand to trifle around with. That's for them other-folk (meaning not them). FUN isnít part of their immediate vocabulary but it's around there. Theyíre too self-absorbed (when they are less healthy). If you want intelligent yet still mischievous fun, Iíd say go to an awesome ESFP .

    Iíd have countered your ENTJ version but I'm too lazy. Hope you enjoyed (seriously)!
    Last edited by zarc; 03-15-2009 at 09:57 AM.

  3. #3
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    zarc--

    I got through most of that and I didn't really see much beyond flat contradictions.

    I mean, I guess you're being fun and all, so I'll just save the trouble of responding.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    zarc--

    I got through most of that and I didn't really see much beyond flat contradictions.

    I mean, I guess you're being fun and all, so I'll just save the trouble of responding.
    What was contradictory? Hmm, could be, so here's another try with less fun effort. I think I see where we mismatched or where I mixed up the types, yea.. And I said lol No copping out!

    K. I defer to type experts now from the book 16 Personality Types: Descriptions for Self-Discovery. Obviously not EVERYone fits perfectly to type but do you agree with these excerpts taken from profile:

    I like variety. I like people. I am whatever is happening at the moment. I accomplish as much as I can to keep from getting boredóI find something I like and can tolerate, that I can see myself good at down the road. And Iím almost always up and positive. I love the simple things in life, and Iím also interested in people and a lot of different things. I look at lifeís possibilities: the excitement of what might come out of a situation and what I might learn about a person.

    Freedom is the most important thing. If I donít have freedom, then what do I have?

    I love talking to people. Making and having friends is gratifying, and I value my friendships. People see me as someone they can tell something to and not just as boring or average. Somehow I charm people, and I am very genuine in my interest. I observe the game of life, and a lot of times itís about being open and observant on my part. Whenever I find things getting heavy, I say something light to make everyone laugh again. Some people are so serious and many people feel guilty about having fun. Fun is important because I can get more work done in a few hours than most people do in a whole day. My biggest contribution is in just listening to what people are trying to do, probing and pushing and mirroring back to them what I hear theyíre saying.
    I love not having to practice and still being good at something. I donít like having to do a lot of planning. I want to accomplish something and move on to the next thing. I am really good at pulling things off, especially if there is a last-minute crisis. Itís just a matter of trying to keep things together, doing what you have to do in the moment. Being outside, getting physical, is also something I have a need for. Everyone always wants me on their team. People say Iím lucky.
    I want to be of value. And I want there to be an equal exchange. I will give a lot but not so people use meóthat limit is a very fine line. Sometimes I donít have a clue what the person needs, but given enough pieces I can help them solve their problems.

    Donít let me sit down and have to do a repetitive task. I want to be efficient and fast. Iím able to simplify things and say whether itís going to work or not.
    I am an individual. I canít imagine following others, and itís a waste of time if someoneís not going to do their best. I want freedom for being able to do what I want to do when I want to do it. Donít tell me I canít do something. Rules and regulations infuriate me. Doing something by the book isnít always logical or reasonable. What makes a difference is if you do a good job or not. Do a good job and I respect you. I want to do my best.
    Do you relate to most of it?

  5. #5
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    OK, your deleted wall post seems to indicate that you wanted further explanation, but for some reason whatever you wrote was inappropriate or otherwise inadequate. I'll go over your post again and try to respond point by point.

    I don't know where you got your ENTP data. I have absolutely no idea, in fact, because some of it is so blatantly wrong. Most of mine comes from personal experience, reading about types and discussing with other ENTPs, but, just to go over a few of the glaring problems:

    --There's nothing "pro-plan" about ENTPs because we're too confident in our improvisational abilities to spend much time on prior planning, in most cases. Your statement that "ENTPs are more calculated than improvised" is just horribly wrong.

    --LOL, stop stereotyping? You are aware that you're on a forum dedicated to an elaborate system of stereotypes, yes?

    --Obviously not all ENTPs are condescending jerks; the fact that you took such a conclusion away from what I wrote make me wonder if you bothered to read it. The point was that enough of them act/are perceived that way often enough that we get a reputation for it. READ!

    --"Calling you out" is part of the "showing you up" process because ENTPs are so good with verbal gymnastics. I have no idea why you decided there was a significant differentiation here, other than looking for minute ways to correct me on trivial semantics. You and Qre:us should start an "I <3 trivial details and missing the main point" club.

    --It's really hysterical that you don't think ENTPs like showing off to others. You seem to be mistakenly describing INTPs here. If you think ENTPs don't thrive on attention and recognition for their abilities, you are misinformed, at best.

    --The fact that you think ENTPs "don't have Te in their system" shows a poor understanding of typology functions and a heavy dose of overconfidence in MBTI functional orders. Everyone exhibits all eight functions in thousands of different varying orders; it's absolutely silly to say that ENTPs simply "don't have Te." Try socionics for a more complete functional estimation.

    --Your whole section on idea scraps is so situational it's not even worth discussing. The point, clearly, was that ENTPs are much more prone to changing their minds and discarding older play things (both mental and physical) in favor of newer and more interesting ones. I'm not going to spend time debating with you about which ideas get stored or reused later what percentage of the time and which ones get thrown out; all of that is person-dependent, and the fact that you felt this was an important enough point to even respond to is kind of ridiculous.

    --"ENTPs don't complain." Errrrrrrrrrrrrrr.............WHAT? Have you ever met an ENTP, or are you making some kind of bizarre deadpan joke here? This point is so dead wrong that I have a hard time discerning if it was even meant seriously.

    --Ne is both a fundamental method of data gathering and a constant escape from boredom. Avoiding boredom is a huge priority for most xNxP types because we're bored so easily by most everyday tasks.

    --Seriously, repeated use of the word "boyo" doesn't actually add any merit to anything you're saying, and if you're going for condescension you should probably be sure you have some idea of what you're talking about first.

    --I mean, it's really sweet of you to be so *thoughtful* in responding and all, but...no. 80% of what you wrote is just brutally, brutally wrong.

    --"There is no care for winning"? Are you joking? Seriously, show me an ENTP that's not competitive at games or whatever his pet interests are.

    --The section about ambiguity...wow. Way to miss the nail thirty feet from the head. You seem to have a reasonable understanding of INTPs and their constant need for logical correctness, but ENTPs are rather different in a lot of ways. You've generalized NTPs here in a way that misses the fundamental distinction between the two NTP types. ENTPs will do things like intentionally contradict themselves, just because the contradiction is funny. We're basically trying to be entertaining by acting out the role of someone whose inability to recognize the contradiction he has set forth makes him funny. It leads to a lot of dead pan humor.

    --Your strange insistence that Ti governs most ENTP action is rather difficult to justify. The functions themselves are good to learn, but when you start insisting that everyone with the same MBTI label has exactly the same functional priorities (so only 16 of 40,320 functional order possibilities actually exist in practice?), and ignoring direct behavioral observations, you're putting way too much faith in the system. Again, everyone exercises all eight functions in many various different orders of priority. MBTI types imply only bidirectional preferences based on four independent variables; "ENTPs don't have Te" is flat out absurd.

    --Please, if the ENTJ counter is as poorly reasoned as this one, just save it. What makes this case special is that it's not just wrong; in many cases it's the absolute antithesis of what's typical of ENTPs. Really, where are you coming up with this stuff?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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    The wall post isn't deleted. I just edited.

    And like I said in your wall post, I think most profiles need correction, so tell me are those profile excerpts written by experts that I posted correct to you or not? And if it is correct, should I stop trying to change it, then?

  7. #7
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Some of it is pretty accurate. Parts of it sound more like ESFP than ENTP, though, and are a bit too generalized.

    For instance:

    And Iím almost always up and positive.

    That's not true. ENTPs are generally positive about long term goals because those are considered challenges, which are given high priority. We can get really cynical and petulant about minor issues, though. ENTPs in a bad mood are very unpleasant to be around.

    I love talking to people.

    Sure, as long as those people can offer something interesting to talk about. Otherwise they're boring, and we don't care.


    Being outside, getting physical, is also something I have a need for. Everyone always wants me on their team. People say Iím lucky.


    This is a much better description for ESxP than ENTP. They're much more into physical and tangible/present-moment activity than we are.

    What makes a difference is if you do a good job or not. Do a good job and I respect you. I want to do my best.

    This is probably true for the more optimistic end of the ENTP spectrum, but it's misleading because it seems to be saying that "doing a good job" is an important principle as its own end, and it's not. We don't automatically respect everyone who does a good job, but we do usually find confidence in high skill levels to be impressive.

    Whether or not we want to do our best is heavily dependent upon whether or not we give a shit about what we're doing. If it's something that interests us, then yes, doing a good job on it is fundamentally tied into our self-image. We want to demonstrate competence to ourselves and others (as opposed to INTPs, who typically only care about proving it to themselves.)

    If it's something we don't care about and are forced to do, not only do we not care about doing a good job, we often make a point of being vocal/showing how little we care, or how this trivial nonsense is "beneath" us. We're open to lots of new ideas and possibilities, but as the earlier quote said, freedom to choose or abruptly change decisions is very important. We'll actually do worse on something if we feel we're being forced into it, just because the imposition on our freedom to choose is so insulting.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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    Err, bit confused. So you're only disagreeing with those three bits you explained that don't fit? Everything else is correct? I'm just trying to be sure of it all.

  9. #9
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Yes, the rest of the quotes you posted seem fairly reasonable to categorize as ENTP behavior/thought process.

    The following are the most ENTP, in my opinion:

    Freedom is the most important thing. If I donít have freedom, then what do I have?

    I accomplish as much as I can to keep from getting boredóI find something I like and can tolerate, that I can see myself good at down the road.

    I observe the game of life, and a lot of times itís about being open and observant on my part.

    I love not having to practice and still being good at something. I donít like having to do a lot of planning.

    Donít tell me I canít do something. Rules and regulations infuriate me. Doing something by the book isnít always logical or reasonable.

    I want to be of value.



    Also, Carlin is not J.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    OK, your deleted wall post seems to indicate that you wanted further explanation, but for some reason whatever you wrote was inappropriate or otherwise inadequate. I'll go over your post again and try to respond point by point.

    I don't know where you got your ENTP data. I have absolutely no idea, in fact, because some of it is so blatantly wrong. Most of mine comes from personal experience, reading about types and discussing with other ENTPs, but, just to go over a few of the glaring problems:

    --There's nothing "pro-plan" about ENTPs because we're too confident in our improvisational abilities to spend much time on prior planning, in most cases. Your statement that "ENTPs are more calculated than improvised" is just horribly wrong.

    --LOL, stop stereotyping? You are aware that you're on a forum dedicated to an elaborate system of stereotypes, yes?

    --Obviously not all ENTPs are condescending jerks; the fact that you took such a conclusion away from what I wrote make me wonder if you bothered to read it. The point was that enough of them act/are perceived that way often enough that we get a reputation for it. READ!

    --"Calling you out" is part of the "showing you up" process because ENTPs are so good with verbal gymnastics. I have no idea why you decided there was a significant differentiation here, other than looking for minute ways to correct me on trivial semantics. You and Qre:us should start an "I <3 trivial details and missing the main point" club.

    --It's really hysterical that you don't think ENTPs like showing off to others. You seem to be mistakenly describing INTPs here. If you think ENTPs don't thrive on attention and recognition for their abilities, you are misinformed, at best.

    --The fact that you think ENTPs "don't have Te in their system" shows a poor understanding of typology functions and a heavy dose of overconfidence in MBTI functional orders. Everyone exhibits all eight functions in thousands of different varying orders; it's absolutely silly to say that ENTPs simply "don't have Te." Try socionics for a more complete functional estimation.

    --Your whole section on idea scraps is so situational it's not even worth discussing. The point, clearly, was that ENTPs are much more prone to changing their minds and discarding older play things (both mental and physical) in favor of newer and more interesting ones. I'm not going to spend time debating with you about which ideas get stored or reused later what percentage of the time and which ones get thrown out; all of that is person-dependent, and the fact that you felt this was an important enough point to even respond to is kind of ridiculous.

    --"ENTPs don't complain." Errrrrrrrrrrrrrr.............WHAT? Have you ever met an ENTP, or are you making some kind of bizarre deadpan joke here? This point is so dead wrong that I have a hard time discerning if it was even meant seriously.

    --Ne is both a fundamental method of data gathering and a constant escape from boredom. Avoiding boredom is a huge priority for most xNxP types because we're bored so easily by most everyday tasks.

    --Seriously, repeated use of the word "boyo" doesn't actually add any merit to anything you're saying, and if you're going for condescension you should probably be sure you have some idea of what you're talking about first.

    --I mean, it's really sweet of you to be so *thoughtful* in responding and all, but...no. 80% of what you wrote is just brutally, brutally wrong.

    --"There is no care for winning"? Are you joking? Seriously, show me an ENTP that's not competitive at games or whatever his pet interests are.

    --The section about ambiguity...wow. Way to miss the nail thirty feet from the head. You seem to have a reasonable understanding of INTPs and their constant need for logical correctness, but ENTPs are rather different in a lot of ways. You've generalized NTPs here in a way that misses the fundamental distinction between the two NTP types. ENTPs will do things like intentionally contradict themselves, just because the contradiction is funny. We're basically trying to be entertaining by acting out the role of someone whose inability to recognize the contradiction he has set forth makes him funny. It leads to a lot of dead pan humor.

    --Your strange insistence that Ti governs most ENTP action is rather difficult to justify. The functions themselves are good to learn, but when you start insisting that everyone with the same MBTI label has exactly the same functional priorities (so only 16 of 40,320 functional order possibilities actually exist in practice?), and ignoring direct behavioral observations, you're putting way too much faith in the system. Again, everyone exercises all eight functions in many various different orders of priority. MBTI types imply only bidirectional preferences based on four independent variables; "ENTPs don't have Te" is flat out absurd.

    --Please, if the ENTJ counter is as poorly reasoned as this one, just save it. What makes this case special is that it's not just wrong; in many cases it's the absolute antithesis of what's typical of ENTPs. Really, where are you coming up with this stuff?
    Boy, you're never going to learn until you wholly abandon profiles and purely embrace functions.

    'Til then it's just pro/injection with you.
    we fukin won boys

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