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[NT] s(t)imulated vs. zarc: ENTJs vs. ENTPs <split>

simulatedworld

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Basically ENTJs are obsessive planners and ENTPs are obsessively anti-plan.

In a social setting it can be hard to tell the difference. We're both condescending jerks that have no problem calling you out on anything we perceive as unintelligent or incorrect, we love to prove our point and we love to show off our mental skills and abilities to everyone.

Moreso than other J/P dichotomies, ENTPs are distinguishable from ENTJs because we're constantly making it up as we go along. We can get into a heated argument fairly easily but we'll drop it and swap sides or completely reverse positions once the next interesting/fun task comes up.

Interest in following through is a huge difference. ENTJs are a lot more methodical. They're typically concerned with productivity and efficient use of time, which ENTPs don't give two shits about. ENTP would rather go off on an Ne rant creating all kinds of new and amusing ideas and entertaining people in the process, then discard that idea as soon as it gets boring.

ENTJs make better group leaders. They're harder workers in most cases, because the only time ENTPs are hard workers is when the "work" is actually enjoyable or otherwise interesting--if it's not, expect nothing more than the bare minimum contribution, along with an occasional sarcastic complaint about how uninteresting the task is.

I think the best way to sum it up is that ENTPs are interested in idea creation and ENTJs are interested in actively putting those ideas to good use. For ENTPs, once the idea has been created and served its purpose by providing a brief escape from boredom, it's hardly of any real use or importance anymore. For ENTJs, forming the idea and the plan is only the beginning, a precursor to accomplishing some broader strategic goal.

ENTJs are also more insistent upon their specific conceptions of how abstract theory should be viewed and applied. Both types will go off on rants about the "proper" way to view their pet theories/interests, but ENTPs are doing it to break the mold/generate entertainment for themselves and others, and actually aren't that dogmatic about adhering strictly to these conceptions. When ENTJs do it, they're genuinely pissed off most times, because theoretical incorrectness is both irritating and offensive.

There's this famous ENTJ poker player, Phil Hellmuth, for instance, who gets seriously angry when he sees people play hands poorly and get lucky to win anyway. He's very outwardly vocal about correcting the theoretical mistakes of others--ENTPs do this too, but mostly just to show off their own knowledge and abilities. Part of us wants to win, but part of us is also hoping you'll come back with an intelligent response so that the exchange can continue providing food for thought. We revel in ambiguity; the tactics involved in the exchange itself tend to take precedence over the actual content of the exchange.

Not so for ENTJs: when they get deeply into an argument, they are on a personal crusade against inefficiency.

For another example, take standup comedians George Carlin (ENTP) and Bill Hicks (ENTJ.) They have similar angry-rant styles, but Carlin's motives are harder to discern. ENTPs' motives have a reputation for being difficult to read, because they're so busy improvising by the seat of their pants that half the time they're not even sure what their own motives are. They love to swap sides in arguments just to challenge themselves and their own analytical abilities.

With ENTJs, there's no time to fuck around with devil's advocate or saying things you don't mean. You know where they stand. Everyone knows where they stand, because they make it known forcefully. They give a much stronger, "Don't trifle with me" vibe.

ENTPs, on the other hand, enjoy trifling and being trifled with. That's part of the fun! Where will this trifling lead? We don't know, and we don't care, as long as it's not boring.
 

zarc

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StoP it, for you know not what you speak.. But I know you’re trying to be helpful, and that’s very commendable of you, but no. lol Lots of fun no. And don't cop out by saying this post is too long either! I've got Ni on you.

ENTPs are obsessively anti-plan.

They are, if obsessive at that, calculated creatures. Pro-plan. And never without a spare. Unless you've Ti-red them out (congrats!).

In a social setting it can be hard to tell the difference. We're both condescending jerks that have no problem calling you out on anything we perceive as unintelligent or incorrect, we love to prove our point and we love to show off our mental skills and abilities to everyone.

Being ENTP does not a condescending jerk make (nor ENTJ either). Stop stereotyping. (And you're not a jerk either, or not always, I've seen you around the board. People don't like jerks and I'm sure people like you. You seem fun AND helpful. Doesn't matter if I think what you're saying is wrong either because you were trying to be helpful to musttry. Weren't you? ;)) But if an ENTP is a condescending jerk, they don’t do it by calling you out but by showing you up. Way up so that you don’t realise it until you’re face down. There is no love of proving a point but in proving the other person wrong. And they could care less about showing off to everyone. They love showing off to themselves. Everyone else is just incidental (unless they care about you so they will show you for some Fe-exchange, though they might deny they need it. They do. They've still got hearts and the stuff that that usually entails).

Moreso than other J/P dichotomies, ENTPs are distinguishable from ENTJs because we're constantly making it up as we go along. We can get into a heated argument fairly easily but we'll drop it and swap sides or completely reverse positions once the next interesting/fun task comes up.

If by saying ENTPs get into heated arguments that they too are heated by it and then cool off shortly, then no. ENTPs rarely get upset by anything. Ti says, "What would be the point?"

ENTP would rather go off on an Ne rant creating all kinds of new and amusing ideas and entertaining people in the process, then discard that idea as soon as it gets boring.

If the idea sprouted from their preciously precocious Ne then that idea was never boring and they wouldn’t scrap it. They’d keep it in mind if it didn’t work out or alter it maybe tomorrow or next Tuesday but never scrap. They like scraps, even yours. What they might do is forget it in favour of their next one and that other new one and...

ENTPs are hard workers is when the "work" is actually enjoyable or otherwise interesting--if it's not, expect nothing more than the bare minimum contribution, along with an occasional sarcastic complaint about how uninteresting the task is.

ENTPs don’t complain. They’re more creative than that. And they wouldn’t give you the satisfaction of knowing either.

For ENTPs, once the idea has been created and served its purpose by providing a brief escape from boredom, it's hardly of any real use or importance anymore.

Ne isn’t used to escape boredom. It’s too important for that. It’s their key to existence, unlocking the possible power of the mind over matters. They sometimes escape boredom by F(e)ucking with people, though. It’s not always meant to be harmful either.

ENTJs are also more insistent upon their specific conceptions of how abstract theory should be viewed and applied. Both types will go off on rants about the "proper" way to view their pet theories/interests, but ENTPs are doing it to break the mold/generate entertainment for themselves and others, and actually aren't that dogmatic about adhering strictly to these conceptions. When ENTJs do it, they're genuinely pissed off most times, because theoretical incorrectness is both irritating and offensive.

Um. ENTPs wouldn't be dogmatic, eh poor choice of word, but they'd hold Ti-ght to their theories/ideas. Cuz it’s the right one. And… “proper” way? Sorry, boyo, but they don’t gots Te in their system. Leave it to the TJs. Or maybe an EFP when you catch them on a bad day... Btw, JIC you’re not receptive at this point, I hope it’s not a bad day for you because I’m being thoughtful in trying to show you. :)

He's very outwardly vocal about correcting the theoretical mistakes of others--ENTPs do this too, but mostly just to show off their own knowledge and abilities.

ENTPs could care less about other people’s mistakes unless it directly effects them. Maybe. No, yes, actually. It's not good to forget they're people with feelings too. Just don't tell it to them, they'll become speechless (Really).

Part of us wants to win, but part of us is also hoping you'll come back with an intelligent response so that the exchange can continue providing food for thought. We revel in ambiguity; the tactics involved in the exchange itself tend to take precedence over the actual content of the exchange.

There is no care for winning. Just being right. Ambiguity? …heh… Ti loathes such a word. You couldn’t annoy an NTP more than by being ambiguous. About anything. Hmm, for them to want to exchange with you there must be a: Precedence set. Content match. Game on, factuality. Otherwise, Ne-xt.

For another example, take standup comedians George Carlin (ENTP) and Bill Hicks (ENTJ.) They have similar angry-rant styles, but Carlin's motives are harder to discern. ENTPs' motives have a reputation for being difficult to read, because they're so busy improvising by the seat of their pants that half the time they're not even sure what their own motives are. They love to swap sides in arguments just to challenge themselves and their own analytical abilities.

Georgey boy is ENTJ. He had such Te Se anger. Explosive rant (-Se) tasker (Te) masker (Ni). ENTPs don’t rant angrily. Louis CK is ENTP. >_> They also don’t improvise like SPs. They calculate like NTs. Boyo, c’mon! They are spontaneous, though, which is not the same as improvising. And so help anyone if they don’t know their own motives cuz that’s when their Fe is on the rag.

ENTPs, on the other hand, enjoy trifling and being trifled with. That's part of the fun! Where will this trifling lead? We don't know, and we don't care, as long as it's not boring.

Those (who are) arrogant bastards think they’re too grand to trifle around with. That's for them other-folk (meaning not them). FUN isn’t part of their immediate vocabulary but it's around there. They’re too self-absorbed (when they are less healthy). If you want intelligent yet still mischievous fun, I’d say go to an awesome ESFP ;).

I’d have countered your ENTJ version but I'm too lazy. Hope you enjoyed (seriously)!
 
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simulatedworld

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zarc--

I got through most of that and I didn't really see much beyond flat contradictions.

I mean, I guess you're being fun and all, so I'll just save the trouble of responding.
 

zarc

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zarc--

I got through most of that and I didn't really see much beyond flat contradictions.

I mean, I guess you're being fun and all, so I'll just save the trouble of responding.

What was contradictory? Hmm, could be, so here's another try with less fun effort. I think I see where we mismatched or where I mixed up the types, yea.. And I said lol No copping out!

K. I defer to type experts now from the book 16 Personality Types: Descriptions for Self-Discovery. Obviously not EVERYone fits perfectly to type but do you agree with these excerpts taken from profile:

I like variety. I like people. I am whatever is happening at the moment. I accomplish as much as I can to keep from getting bored—I find something I like and can tolerate, that I can see myself good at down the road. And I’m almost always up and positive. I love the simple things in life, and I’m also interested in people and a lot of different things. I look at life’s possibilities: the excitement of what might come out of a situation and what I might learn about a person.

Freedom is the most important thing. If I don’t have freedom, then what do I have?

I love talking to people. Making and having friends is gratifying, and I value my friendships. People see me as someone they can tell something to and not just as boring or average. Somehow I charm people, and I am very genuine in my interest. I observe the game of life, and a lot of times it’s about being open and observant on my part. Whenever I find things getting heavy, I say something light to make everyone laugh again. Some people are so serious and many people feel guilty about having fun. Fun is important because I can get more work done in a few hours than most people do in a whole day. My biggest contribution is in just listening to what people are trying to do, probing and pushing and mirroring back to them what I hear they’re saying.

I love not having to practice and still being good at something. I don’t like having to do a lot of planning. I want to accomplish something and move on to the next thing. I am really good at pulling things off, especially if there is a last-minute crisis. It’s just a matter of trying to keep things together, doing what you have to do in the moment. Being outside, getting physical, is also something I have a need for. Everyone always wants me on their team. People say I’m lucky.

I want to be of value. And I want there to be an equal exchange. I will give a lot but not so people use me—that limit is a very fine line. Sometimes I don’t have a clue what the person needs, but given enough pieces I can help them solve their problems.

Don’t let me sit down and have to do a repetitive task. I want to be efficient and fast. I’m able to simplify things and say whether it’s going to work or not.

I am an individual. I can’t imagine following others, and it’s a waste of time if someone’s not going to do their best. I want freedom for being able to do what I want to do when I want to do it. Don’t tell me I can’t do something. Rules and regulations infuriate me. Doing something by the book isn’t always logical or reasonable. What makes a difference is if you do a good job or not. Do a good job and I respect you. I want to do my best.

Do you relate to most of it?
 

simulatedworld

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OK, your deleted wall post seems to indicate that you wanted further explanation, but for some reason whatever you wrote was inappropriate or otherwise inadequate. I'll go over your post again and try to respond point by point.

I don't know where you got your ENTP data. I have absolutely no idea, in fact, because some of it is so blatantly wrong. Most of mine comes from personal experience, reading about types and discussing with other ENTPs, but, just to go over a few of the glaring problems:

--There's nothing "pro-plan" about ENTPs because we're too confident in our improvisational abilities to spend much time on prior planning, in most cases. Your statement that "ENTPs are more calculated than improvised" is just horribly wrong.

--LOL, stop stereotyping? You are aware that you're on a forum dedicated to an elaborate system of stereotypes, yes?

--Obviously not all ENTPs are condescending jerks; the fact that you took such a conclusion away from what I wrote make me wonder if you bothered to read it. The point was that enough of them act/are perceived that way often enough that we get a reputation for it. READ!

--"Calling you out" is part of the "showing you up" process because ENTPs are so good with verbal gymnastics. I have no idea why you decided there was a significant differentiation here, other than looking for minute ways to correct me on trivial semantics. You and Qre:us should start an "I <3 trivial details and missing the main point" club.

--It's really hysterical that you don't think ENTPs like showing off to others. You seem to be mistakenly describing INTPs here. If you think ENTPs don't thrive on attention and recognition for their abilities, you are misinformed, at best.

--The fact that you think ENTPs "don't have Te in their system" shows a poor understanding of typology functions and a heavy dose of overconfidence in MBTI functional orders. Everyone exhibits all eight functions in thousands of different varying orders; it's absolutely silly to say that ENTPs simply "don't have Te." Try socionics for a more complete functional estimation.

--Your whole section on idea scraps is so situational it's not even worth discussing. The point, clearly, was that ENTPs are much more prone to changing their minds and discarding older play things (both mental and physical) in favor of newer and more interesting ones. I'm not going to spend time debating with you about which ideas get stored or reused later what percentage of the time and which ones get thrown out; all of that is person-dependent, and the fact that you felt this was an important enough point to even respond to is kind of ridiculous.

--"ENTPs don't complain." Errrrrrrrrrrrrrr.............WHAT? Have you ever met an ENTP, or are you making some kind of bizarre deadpan joke here? This point is so dead wrong that I have a hard time discerning if it was even meant seriously.

--Ne is both a fundamental method of data gathering and a constant escape from boredom. Avoiding boredom is a huge priority for most xNxP types because we're bored so easily by most everyday tasks.

--Seriously, repeated use of the word "boyo" doesn't actually add any merit to anything you're saying, and if you're going for condescension you should probably be sure you have some idea of what you're talking about first.

--I mean, it's really sweet of you to be so *thoughtful* in responding and all, but...no. 80% of what you wrote is just brutally, brutally wrong.

--"There is no care for winning"? Are you joking? Seriously, show me an ENTP that's not competitive at games or whatever his pet interests are.

--The section about ambiguity...wow. Way to miss the nail thirty feet from the head. You seem to have a reasonable understanding of INTPs and their constant need for logical correctness, but ENTPs are rather different in a lot of ways. You've generalized NTPs here in a way that misses the fundamental distinction between the two NTP types. ENTPs will do things like intentionally contradict themselves, just because the contradiction is funny. We're basically trying to be entertaining by acting out the role of someone whose inability to recognize the contradiction he has set forth makes him funny. It leads to a lot of dead pan humor.

--Your strange insistence that Ti governs most ENTP action is rather difficult to justify. The functions themselves are good to learn, but when you start insisting that everyone with the same MBTI label has exactly the same functional priorities (so only 16 of 40,320 functional order possibilities actually exist in practice?), and ignoring direct behavioral observations, you're putting way too much faith in the system. Again, everyone exercises all eight functions in many various different orders of priority. MBTI types imply only bidirectional preferences based on four independent variables; "ENTPs don't have Te" is flat out absurd.

--Please, if the ENTJ counter is as poorly reasoned as this one, just save it. What makes this case special is that it's not just wrong; in many cases it's the absolute antithesis of what's typical of ENTPs. Really, where are you coming up with this stuff?
 

zarc

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The wall post isn't deleted. I just edited.

And like I said in your wall post, I think most profiles need correction, so tell me are those profile excerpts written by experts that I posted correct to you or not? And if it is correct, should I stop trying to change it, then?
 

simulatedworld

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Some of it is pretty accurate. Parts of it sound more like ESFP than ENTP, though, and are a bit too generalized.

For instance:

And I’m almost always up and positive.

That's not true. ENTPs are generally positive about long term goals because those are considered challenges, which are given high priority. We can get really cynical and petulant about minor issues, though. ENTPs in a bad mood are very unpleasant to be around.

I love talking to people.

Sure, as long as those people can offer something interesting to talk about. Otherwise they're boring, and we don't care.


Being outside, getting physical, is also something I have a need for. Everyone always wants me on their team. People say I’m lucky.


This is a much better description for ESxP than ENTP. They're much more into physical and tangible/present-moment activity than we are.

What makes a difference is if you do a good job or not. Do a good job and I respect you. I want to do my best.

This is probably true for the more optimistic end of the ENTP spectrum, but it's misleading because it seems to be saying that "doing a good job" is an important principle as its own end, and it's not. We don't automatically respect everyone who does a good job, but we do usually find confidence in high skill levels to be impressive.

Whether or not we want to do our best is heavily dependent upon whether or not we give a shit about what we're doing. If it's something that interests us, then yes, doing a good job on it is fundamentally tied into our self-image. We want to demonstrate competence to ourselves and others (as opposed to INTPs, who typically only care about proving it to themselves.)

If it's something we don't care about and are forced to do, not only do we not care about doing a good job, we often make a point of being vocal/showing how little we care, or how this trivial nonsense is "beneath" us. We're open to lots of new ideas and possibilities, but as the earlier quote said, freedom to choose or abruptly change decisions is very important. We'll actually do worse on something if we feel we're being forced into it, just because the imposition on our freedom to choose is so insulting.
 

zarc

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Err, bit confused. So you're only disagreeing with those three bits you explained that don't fit? Everything else is correct? I'm just trying to be sure of it all.
 

simulatedworld

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Yes, the rest of the quotes you posted seem fairly reasonable to categorize as ENTP behavior/thought process.

The following are the most ENTP, in my opinion:

Freedom is the most important thing. If I don’t have freedom, then what do I have?

I accomplish as much as I can to keep from getting bored—I find something I like and can tolerate, that I can see myself good at down the road.

I observe the game of life, and a lot of times it’s about being open and observant on my part.

I love not having to practice and still being good at something. I don’t like having to do a lot of planning.

Don’t tell me I can’t do something. Rules and regulations infuriate me. Doing something by the book isn’t always logical or reasonable.

I want to be of value.



Also, Carlin is not J.
 

Nocapszy

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OK, your deleted wall post seems to indicate that you wanted further explanation, but for some reason whatever you wrote was inappropriate or otherwise inadequate. I'll go over your post again and try to respond point by point.

I don't know where you got your ENTP data. I have absolutely no idea, in fact, because some of it is so blatantly wrong. Most of mine comes from personal experience, reading about types and discussing with other ENTPs, but, just to go over a few of the glaring problems:

--There's nothing "pro-plan" about ENTPs because we're too confident in our improvisational abilities to spend much time on prior planning, in most cases. Your statement that "ENTPs are more calculated than improvised" is just horribly wrong.

--LOL, stop stereotyping? You are aware that you're on a forum dedicated to an elaborate system of stereotypes, yes?

--Obviously not all ENTPs are condescending jerks; the fact that you took such a conclusion away from what I wrote make me wonder if you bothered to read it. The point was that enough of them act/are perceived that way often enough that we get a reputation for it. READ!

--"Calling you out" is part of the "showing you up" process because ENTPs are so good with verbal gymnastics. I have no idea why you decided there was a significant differentiation here, other than looking for minute ways to correct me on trivial semantics. You and Qre:us should start an "I <3 trivial details and missing the main point" club.

--It's really hysterical that you don't think ENTPs like showing off to others. You seem to be mistakenly describing INTPs here. If you think ENTPs don't thrive on attention and recognition for their abilities, you are misinformed, at best.

--The fact that you think ENTPs "don't have Te in their system" shows a poor understanding of typology functions and a heavy dose of overconfidence in MBTI functional orders. Everyone exhibits all eight functions in thousands of different varying orders; it's absolutely silly to say that ENTPs simply "don't have Te." Try socionics for a more complete functional estimation.

--Your whole section on idea scraps is so situational it's not even worth discussing. The point, clearly, was that ENTPs are much more prone to changing their minds and discarding older play things (both mental and physical) in favor of newer and more interesting ones. I'm not going to spend time debating with you about which ideas get stored or reused later what percentage of the time and which ones get thrown out; all of that is person-dependent, and the fact that you felt this was an important enough point to even respond to is kind of ridiculous.

--"ENTPs don't complain." Errrrrrrrrrrrrrr.............WHAT? Have you ever met an ENTP, or are you making some kind of bizarre deadpan joke here? This point is so dead wrong that I have a hard time discerning if it was even meant seriously.

--Ne is both a fundamental method of data gathering and a constant escape from boredom. Avoiding boredom is a huge priority for most xNxP types because we're bored so easily by most everyday tasks.

--Seriously, repeated use of the word "boyo" doesn't actually add any merit to anything you're saying, and if you're going for condescension you should probably be sure you have some idea of what you're talking about first.

--I mean, it's really sweet of you to be so *thoughtful* in responding and all, but...no. 80% of what you wrote is just brutally, brutally wrong.

--"There is no care for winning"? Are you joking? Seriously, show me an ENTP that's not competitive at games or whatever his pet interests are.

--The section about ambiguity...wow. Way to miss the nail thirty feet from the head. You seem to have a reasonable understanding of INTPs and their constant need for logical correctness, but ENTPs are rather different in a lot of ways. You've generalized NTPs here in a way that misses the fundamental distinction between the two NTP types. ENTPs will do things like intentionally contradict themselves, just because the contradiction is funny. We're basically trying to be entertaining by acting out the role of someone whose inability to recognize the contradiction he has set forth makes him funny. It leads to a lot of dead pan humor.

--Your strange insistence that Ti governs most ENTP action is rather difficult to justify. The functions themselves are good to learn, but when you start insisting that everyone with the same MBTI label has exactly the same functional priorities (so only 16 of 40,320 functional order possibilities actually exist in practice?), and ignoring direct behavioral observations, you're putting way too much faith in the system. Again, everyone exercises all eight functions in many various different orders of priority. MBTI types imply only bidirectional preferences based on four independent variables; "ENTPs don't have Te" is flat out absurd.

--Please, if the ENTJ counter is as poorly reasoned as this one, just save it. What makes this case special is that it's not just wrong; in many cases it's the absolute antithesis of what's typical of ENTPs. Really, where are you coming up with this stuff?

Boy, you're never going to learn until you wholly abandon profiles and purely embrace functions.

'Til then it's just pro/injection with you.
 

Nocapszy

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I think most profiles need correction, so tell me are those profile excerpts written by experts that I posted correct to you or not? And if it is correct, should I stop trying to change it, then?

Ah!

Looks like I've been beaten to the punch.
Careful zarc, he's a violent non-learner.
 

simulatedworld

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Boy, you're never going to learn until you wholly abandon profiles and purely embrace functions.

'Til then it's just pro/injection with you.

You're never going to learn until you go to trolling school. I think Devry has a course for that; you should look into it.
 

zarc

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Thank you, I knew you'd relate. :)

Incidentally, those excerpts were taken from the ESFP profile. Whoops. I didn't say that they were ENTP. I just asked you if you related. You relate.

Before I go on, you completely misunderstood my first post to you. You took it all literally. You didn't decipher anything, you didn't probe deeper. You took it all at face value. I won't bother pointing it out word for word. All you did was Se-Te at me. You didn't even notice the hints I was giving you. Here is but just two:
StoP it, for you know not what you speak

....

If you want intelligent yet still mischievous fun, I’d say go to an awesome ESFP ;)

I bolded. Y'know. JIC. I can't bold the wink, though. Just know it was meant to be a sincere one, though you'll probably not believe me. S'ok.

Now look at ENTP. Even afterwards, with the succeeding posts, you couldn't even see the set up. SusPected nothing but good-feel-me-vibes to your Fi because you thought I was finally on your side. ENTP, you are not.

Now, all that's written below was written early this mornin'. I knew this would happen. Check it out, it's called Ni. And Fe can be deceitful, that's what pulled you into a false sense of security when you thought I was on your playing field. Goddamn, I think I'm channelling someone I know...

You're probably going to be upset with me, that's fine, but I'd rather you be than continuing to misrepresent yourself all over the boards. Cherish and accept who you are as a person and not some idealized image you have of something else. ENTPs aren't all that great, y'know. No, haha jk, ALL types are great. Actually no, types by themselves are meaningless. It's how they're expressed through you as an individual that makes the difference. IOW, It's the people who aren't great.

Random tidbit. Why you think George Carlin is ENTP since you think you are. You probably aren't as happy as you can be, and so you're mostly relying on your Te to get out of...depression, or unhappiness, or not feeling fullfilled, or being trapped by people around you who you feel are constricting your growth. You become condescending with your Se - Te (ignoring your Fi) and it looks similar to Carlin who is ENTJ. Carlin was freakin' angry at times, ignoring his Ni so that it was just Te-Se. Unhappy person during those parts. Explosive (-Se) ranting (-Te).

--

OH! Something just occured to me. LOL I recalled something from your profile page... You have that type logic site on ENTPs as your bio. Made me think that's where you got the idea George Carlin is ENTP because he's listed. And I was right lol You took it at face value. You gotta stop doing that. You are capable. I'm assuming you took the rest of the people listed as ENTPs too instead of discerning on your own whether or not they were. Se - Te.

--

My 16 year old sister, who is the love of my life, is ESFP. She's hilariously charming, intelligent (3 years Honor Roll straight), knows how to fuck around with people's heads in the moment (playfully) and can't sit still to save her life. She can be aggressive, doesn't know her own strength (when playing with me T_T) and she loves debates--especially enjoys debating a side she disagrees with because it's doesn't matter what point one is proving but how well one argues it, and when she ends up winning it's just icing on the cake. She can't tolerate stupidity, she hates Pack-Mentality and most kids at her school who have fallen prey to Mass Media crap. She doesn't know which is worse: Guys who think they have to act like Guys or Girls who try to act for guys. She does want she wants when she wants while still respecting people's wishes - so long as they're reasonable. She doesn't take shit from anyone. She's incredibly (beyond incredibly) kind and generous. She's awesome.

Remember that poem I wrote on your wall?

Time will tell, it will tell on you,
so what has been said, just know it is true.

Yea, subtle hint of what was to come. So now it's come.

But as I've said to you before, accept it or don't. I now leave it up to you. :) Even if you don't respond, which I suspect, I hope you get it one day.

---

and musttry sorry for cluttering up your welcoming thread, I can have a mod move our posts if you'd like. And my version was the correct one. I didn't want you getting misinformation about ENTPs. Here's that site regarding the excerpts I took from ESFP. Check out the rest of the types there if interested. That site, along with a few others on the web, are more fair in their Type profiles (esp. fair with Sensors since what's out there is so damaging) which are said to be "best fit types".
 

simulatedworld

Freshman Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2008
Messages
5,552
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
7w6
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Ohhhhh wow, aren't you clever? This is the most self-indulgent, masturbatory nonsense I've read in a long time. You stuck a bunch of function name puns into your text, you sly dog, you! I'm afraid I'm at a loss to compete with such brilliance, so I guess next post, I'll just overcompensate with the self-gratification.

I don't know what your type is, but you seem awfully pleased with yourself over very little. I guess if I'd said "WOW YEAH ALL OF THAT IS PRECISELY ENTP LOL" then I'd agree that your cunning rouse accomplished something, but...I didn't, and it hasn't.

ENTP and ESFP have two letters in common. I guess that explains why I said that some of it fits and some of it doesn't; I was even able to guess which type description you pulled them from when I explained which parts fit and which didn't. The ones that fit are ExxP characteristics. This may come as a shock to you, but ENTP and ESFP share some characteristics, and their properties are not mutually exclusive. I'm not really sure that you've proven anything, but don't let that stop your disgustingly misplaced sense of smug self-satisfaction from taking the wheel here.

I'm not angry with you as much as disappointed that you think you've accomplished something significant. You're just SO fascinated with yourself over some kind of attempted deception, when it didn't even work. Did you notice the part where I said, "This is partially accurate, but some of it sounds more ESxP than ENTP"? Seriously, did you just miss that entirely? Ugh, next please.

Me: This is what I think ENTPs are like.
You: No, that's wrong. I'll prove it. Here's an expert description of ENTP! Does it sound ENTP to you?
Me: Parts of it fit. Others sound more ESxP than ENTP, but it's somewhat accurate.
You: OHHHH THE JOKE'S ON YOU, ACTUALLY IT WAS AN ESFP DESCRIPTION! OWWWWWNNNNEDD!!!!!!
Me: Umm....

I think Carlin is ENTP because he fits commonly identified ENTP characteristics, not because I am. If your point is, "Types are composite guesses and not exact road maps to the real mental processes of people," then, um...congrats? I've already stated that exact point on numerous occasions, but if you and Nocap think you're somehow breaking new ground or blowing my mind by repeating it, then knock yourselves out.

I've already explained how MBTI types are useful as starting points for people categorization which must then be augmented and constantly changed as new and more specific information becomes available. If you still think I'm taking them as dogmatically perfect or complete explanations of real people, it's not really my problem anymore.

Obviously MBTI still has some use as a general labeling system, so why are you spending four paragraphs rambling about how useless it is and then trying to correct my conceptions of it? I can only repeat so many times that I understand its inherent limitations before I'm forced to conclude that you're willfully ignoring this admission.
 

zarc

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 1, 2008
Messages
2,629
MBTI Type
Zzzz
I liked your constant edits. It's far more of an attack now. Instead of countering with your invisible Ti (=noticing if there were logical inconsistences), you just run around asserting your understanding of the subject which wasn't even on the table to discuss anymore. Te Te Te lol

Refute, don't dispute. Learn.

Ohhhhh wow, aren't you clever? This is the most self-indulgent, masturbatory nonsense I've read in a long time. You stuck a bunch of function name puns into your text, you sly dog, you! I'm afraid I'm at a loss to compete with such brilliance, so I guess next post, I'll just overcompensate with the self-gratification.

I am clever, and I revel in it, glad you noticed. I always try to indulge myself in what amuses me. The function names put into my posts was to explain how it works in relation to the info. My apologies, I actually thought you had *at least* cursory understanding of how they work. Now that I know you don’t, it makes more sense. I thought you were just misapplying them. We could work from there should you allow progression. Otherwise, after this post, it’ll likely just be play time.

You are correct. It was self-masturbatory. And I got off on it. Weren't you watching?

I don't know what your type is, but you seem awfully pleased with yourself over very little. I guess if I'd said "WOW YEAH ALL OF THAT IS PRECISELY ENTP LOL" then I'd agree that your cunning rouse accomplished something, but...I didn't, and it hasn't.

You don’t know my type? Can’t figure me out? Not bothering to? When you learn functions, you possibly will. And when you learn ENTP, you’ll learn they’d have already tried and more often be correct for it.--b/c they like cracking systems and that includes systems of people. Til then, I remain more than mist less than fist. I just hope you one day see my hand was always open, regardless of how hard I tried shaking yours. If not, too bad for us both. I’m kind of fond of you. You’re amusing when you’re not being crass.

And you missed the point then, as you’re still doing now. You aren’t supposed to completely fit but have a ‘best fit’. Go read the ENTP profile on that site. It is not you. Especially read the parts about needing to structure and format and such (Yea, that'd be their Ti at work). Should I paste info for you? Like the important ones where you don’t match?

I already told you lol I suspected it wouldn’t resonate with you. So yes, I didn’t accomplish what I wanted, however in time as I said, it may prove true. I am ever patient, you’ll find. And it doesn’t matter to me should I become aware of it either. I’d just hope you learn for yourself is all.

ENTP and ESFP have two letters in common. I guess that explains why I said that some of it fits and some of it doesn't; I was even able to guess which type description you pulled them from when I explained which parts fit and which didn't. The ones that fit are ExxP characteristics. This may come as a shock to you, but ENTP and ESFP share some characteristics, and their properties are not mutually exclusive. I'm not really sure that you've proven anything, but don't let that stop your disgustingly misplaced sense of smug self-satisfaction from taking the wheel here.

lol Two letters in common mean nothing, especially those particular ones. Saying E and T would have made more sense, not be right, but make more sense. So no, it doesn't explain how it fits but just how it fits to you. Otherwise all EPs would be similar by what you say and they're not. Next you'll think ENFP is similar to ENTP because you're ENTP. They aren't. If you do think they're similar it's b/c you're ESFP.

ENTP is closer to ESTP and INTP – b/c they have similar functions. Not ENTJ. Learn functions, learn how they relate. And you were able to guess some of it was ESFP because some things you’ve already learned from your precious typelogic profile and recognized – I almost left those parts out but decided against it. What then, if I'd taken those three little lines, you'd have agreed to it all (don't bother disagreeing now b/c you already agreed that the rest fit you--) Still ENTP, hmm? And it wasn’t “some” you recognized. It was T H R E E little lines. You agreed to everything else. That’s why I had you clarify. I wanted to make sure before going on with it because you could’ve been ENTP (though I doubted).

simulatedworld said:
Some of it is pretty accurate. Parts of it sound more like ESFP than ENTP, though, and are a bit too generalized.

I find it strange you could say they're a bit too generalized yet you keep on harping how that's what type is about --generalizations and stereotypes. You don't get to indiscriminately choose when it fits. -- that being, when it fits to your understanding.

I'm not angry with you as much as disappointed that you think you've accomplished something significant. You're just SO fascinated with yourself over some kind of attempted deception, when it didn't even work. Did you notice the part where I said, "This is partially accurate, but some of it sounds more ESxP than ENTP"? Seriously, did you just miss that entirely? Ugh, next please.

Did you notice the parts where--- ah, never mind (re:read above at least). There were too many, I keep and kept pointing them out, and now I’d just be regurgitating it all over again. It’s like merry-go-rounding after eating an ice-cream jalapeño peppered sandwich. I’m both dizzy and sick. >_>

Yup, I am fascinated by myself, not SO but juuuust right. I make no bones about. I’d throw some at you but I doubt you’d play catch. It wasn’t some kind of attempted deception. It was full on throttle take it to the max manipulation. Wouldn't ENTPs be clever enough to notice?

Me: This is what I think ENTPs are like.
You: No, that's wrong. I'll prove it. Here's an expert description of ENTP! Does it sound ENTP to you?
Me: Parts of it fit. Others sound more ESxP than ENTP, but it's somewhat accurate.
You: OHHHH THE JOKE'S ON YOU, ACTUALLY IT WAS AN ESFP DESCRIPTION! OWWWWWNNNNEDD!!!!!!
Me: Umm....

Yup, that I did. Did you think I wasn’t aware? Your point?

And y'know, I notice how often you deflect and ignore what's actually written. I did point out to you in the differences in my first post about what was wrong with your ENTP version. Point by point I dissected how it was wrong. Throwing "functions" in there didn't matter because there was information backing it up. You couldn't counter me on functions because you didn't understand. There's an excuse if you didn't know about functions or how they work but there's no excuse that you didn't try to refute anything. Just kept disputing your case. Next!

I think Carlin is ENTP because he fits commonly identified ENTP characteristics, not because I am. If your point is, "Types are composite guesses and not exact road maps to the real mental processes of people," then, um...congrats? I've already stated that exact point on numerous occasions, but if you and Nocap think you're somehow breaking new ground or blowing my mind by repeating it, then knock yourselves out.

George Carlin is ENTJ. Louis CK is ENTP. And he’s freakin’ hilarious too.

Why bring Nocap into this? What do I care what he’s said to you? It's none of my business nor pertinent to the discussion. And why did you bring Qre:us into it before as well(though you took her out. Yea I noticed in edition 1.)? You can’t even objectively argue without bringing people you are bothered by into the discussion to make your case? …. What do THEY have to do with what WE are discussing? Nothing. So keep them out of it.

I've already explained how MBTI types are useful as starting points for people categorization which must then be augmented and constantly changed as new and more specific information becomes available. If you still think I'm taking them as dogmatically perfect or complete explanations of real people, it's not really my problem anymore.

It isn’t your problem if you don’t care in being correct. It’s everyone else’s problem because you spread that incorrectness around. You aren’t the only one, no, but most people here have basic understanding of the functions and know a bit about how they work together.

Obviously MBTI still has some use as a general labeling system, so why are you spending four paragraphs rambling about how useless it is and then trying to correct my conceptions of it? I can only repeat so many times that I understand its inherent limitations before I'm forced to conclude that you're willfully ignoring this admission.

I never said it was useless. Don't put words into my mouth, please. You seem to do that often. Really, find me where I explicitly say that typing or that the MBTI system is useless. -- I wouldn't have learned the whole thing if I thought so. And don't just find me just one thing but find me the whole 'rambling paragraphs about it's uselessness'. Did you even read the post...? Or were you too heated to grasp much of anything? Anyway, you won’t find any. Not one in that last post, or any, did I even so much as say that. You’re making it up. Inferior Ni. But I bet that if you did, you wouldn't bother countering anything and just point that out as if to say "I've made my case!" lol

What I’m more disappointed in was that you say you love games yet you couldn’t handle mine enough to play along. Maybe you aren’t ESFP either. Oh wait, I almost forgot!, you didn’t want to play along because it didn’t feel good to your Fi (Fi = one's personal feelings). Makes sense. You shouldn’t play. So, if I have upset you and you’re just not saying it. Stop this game.

Or stop viewing it as an argument when it's a discussion. Not once did I insult you in any which way ever prior. The only thing I did was insult your sense of identity. I'm sorry if it's upsetting but I don't apologise for being right.

And it ends when you want it to, otherwise you’ll just end up feeling worse for it. Cuz I could care less, I’m just having fun knowing I'm right. I did say that from the very beginning.

And while you may think me an asshole, and sometimes I am, I’m not the kind that shits all over people. I let people do that to themselves.

P.S. Boyo wasn't meant to be condescending. I only use boyo for males I'm fond of. And, yes, it includes calling ones that I don't necessarily like either. I'm queer like that.
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
4,517
MBTI Type
ENTP
You're never going to learn until you go to trolling school. I think Devry has a course for that; you should look into it.

Man... you're a sore loser.
Let's see if that trips you up.

Not only that but you debate so directly... not a Ti way at all.
Actually more like an Se way.

I have to say I agree with Zarc. Well not that you care, but there are forum members who might. It's for their benefit.

You've already deemed me to mean to take anything I have to say seriously, which is a shame only for you.

For the rest of you, take a lesson from the mistakes made here.

Rather than cutting to the core issue (as an NT would) he instead rebuts the immediate topic. I won't comment on the quality (and don't take that as a sarcastic way of saying "they sucked" because not all of it was really bad) of the arguments.

...

Well anyway, I don't really much care about SW.
Instead what I'm here to point out is the ambiguity seen when a type description is misrepresented.

I won't bring specifics up because I really don't have the patience for that: if you're curious enough, you'll find it yourself. Also if I did then all I've done is to debunk a few instances of failed typological mapping, which, in the long run does nothing.

For those of you who do bother yourself to look into it, you'll find it much easier to identify these things on your own rather than having to be told.

I will tell you where to look though.
It's funny... all of them are in this post. If I were sw I probably would have smelled a sniping.

Also, this post is literally filled with assertions which confuse psychological predispositions with conscious creed/rationale.
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
4,517
MBTI Type
ENTP
By the way

sw said:
Me: This is what I think ENTPs are like.
You: No, that's wrong. I'll prove it. Here's an expert description of ENTP! Does it sound ENTP to you?
Me: Parts of it fit. Others sound more ESxP than ENTP, but it's somewhat accurate.
You: OHHHH THE JOKE'S ON YOU, ACTUALLY IT WAS AN ESFP DESCRIPTION! OWWWWWNNNNEDD!!!!!!
Me: Umm....
Not to er...
But the quoted segment is Se.

........:)
Have a nice day!
 

Kangirl

I'm a star.
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
Messages
1,470
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Alright, boys, let's settle this.

Unzip!

*hands tape measure to kindly mod*
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
4,517
MBTI Type
ENTP
That's actually a rather sad misinterpretation of what's happening here.

Nocap disapprove.
 
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