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  1. #11
    Senior Member ed111's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    I wouldn't really care. Everybody has the right to think whatever they want. This topic is too boring to argue about.

    Agreed: This is very hypothetical. Trying to be rational, and believing that everything has a rational explanation is fundamental to the way I view the world. For example, I rationalise my irrational fears.

  2. #12
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Define rationalist.
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
    - Costrin

  3. #13
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    It's kind of an arbitrary title used to summarily describe a group of people. It's not an all-encapsulating remark. The same wisdom applies to the notion that not all NFs are "Idealists" or that every SP is an "Artisan".

    The heading sounds elitist. Formal MBTI "titles" do more to confuse awareness than offer credible connecting points between types.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    It's kind of an arbitrary title used to summarily describe a group of people. It's not an all-encapsulating remark. The same wisdom applies to the notion that not all NFs are "Idealists" or that every SP is an "Artisan".

    The heading sounds elitist. Formal MBTI "titles" do more to confuse awareness than offer credible connecting points between types.
    This

    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin
    Define rationalist.
    And this.


    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld
    If only so many religious people didn't actually think that, we wouldn't have to repeatedly explain how stupid it is.
    Why would a T want to explain how stupid it is? Doesn't it make more sense trying to explain how illogical it is? "Stupidity" smells like emotional involvement.



    Now, I might be an F, but I value logic a whole lot. Still, at the end of the day, true/false and good/bad are both subjective dichotomies.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Helios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Now, I might be an F, but I value logic a whole lot. Still, at the end of the day, true/false and good/bad are both subjective dichotomies.
    I'm not sure how the proposition "2+2=4" is only true "to someone", or "subjectively". Would the claim, "Still, at the end of the day, true/false...(is a) subjective dichotomy" also only be "true" in a similar fashion?

  6. #16
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    I will be a devils advocete here.


    In the case someone accuses you as a NT that you are not rationalist in the core, how would you defend your position(s) ? Which arguments would you use?



    How would you defend the claim that domination of N and T creates something that we can rational or the most rational combination?
    "How am I not rational?" "Expand on your theory." "Use rational thought to explain your argument...as I understand rational thought as second-nature"...perhaps those questions would help them support their argument.

    If they didn't support it, I would tell them what they were saying didn't make sense. Therein lies my rational thought.

    You can then tell them that, showing you are rational, as a consolation prize for them.
    "..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
    'Men are meant to be with women. The rest is perversion and mental illness.'

  7. #17
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helios View Post
    I'm not sure how the proposition "2+2=4" is only true "to someone", or "subjectively". Would the claim, "Still, at the end of the day, true/false...(is a) subjective dichotomy" also only be "true" in a similar fashion?
    It's subjective when you try and define "2" and "+" and "=" and "4". Math is arbitrary to a certain extent, and a human construct made to fit our perception of things. Look at how Einstein dismissed Quantum theory. He had a preconceived notion of how theoretical science related to reality. "True" and "false" might be absolutely concrete in the realm of theoretical math, but as soon as you apply that theory to the world, things might not "fit".

    If a Neanderthal were to look at "2+2=4", he wouldn't think in terms of true/false. Trueness and falseness are human concepts just like good and evil.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Helios's Avatar
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    It's subjective when you try and define "2" and "+" and "=" and "4"
    The numeral "2" denotes the number 2; "+" is a symbol, used to indicate that the function is additional; "=" is another symbol, used to express equality. The value of "2+2" is necessarily "4", a numeral denoting the number 4.


    Math is arbitrary to a certain extent, and a human construct made to fit our perception of things.
    Mathematics is not the extrapolation of empirical observation; we do not conclude that 2+2=4 from observing that, upon gathering two apples, and then gathering another two, we are left with four; indeed, no evidence can possibly be adduced for the proposition.

    Look at how Einstein dismissed Quantum theory. He had a preconceived notion of how theoretical science related to reality. "True" and "false" might be absolutely concrete in the realm of theoretical math, but as soon as you apply that theory to the world, things might not "fit".
    I find this explanation too nebulous to properly respond to.

    If a Neanderthal were to look at "2+2=4", he wouldn't think in terms of true/false. Trueness and falseness are human concepts just like good and evil.
    A "Neanderthal" would be ignorant of our notation.

    In the spirit of my former question, is it "subjectively" true that the notions of "true" and "false" are "subjective"; or, to put it another way, is it subjectively true that relativism is true?

  9. #19
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helios View Post
    The numeral "2" denotes the number 2; "+" is a symbol, used to indicate that the function is additional; "=" is another symbol, used to express equality. The value of "2+2" is necessarily "4", a numeral denoting the number 4.
    Yes, for people who know and accept Math.

    Mathematics is not the extrapolation of empirical observation; we do not conclude that 2+2=4 from observing that, upon gathering two apples, and then gathering another two, we are left with four; indeed, no evidence can possibly be adduced for the proposition.
    My point exactly. Trueness is a concept that exists beyond Mathematics and any other logical system.

    I find this explanation too nebulous to properly respond to.
    True and false are dependent on prior knowledge and intellectual baggage. The rules change every now and then. Like the introduction of the concept of imaginary numbers in mathematics.

    A "Neanderthal" would be ignorant of our notation.
    Exactly. True or false is subjective because a notation is required to think in such terms. Good and evil works much the same way the notation being the Bible or common sense or any other value system. It's arbitrary. We force the concept into the world. It's like any other dichotomy.

    In the spirit of my former question, is it "subjectively" true that the notions of "true" and "false" are "subjective"; or, to put it another way, is it subjectively true that relativism is true?
    I think so. Are you asking me where I draw the line?

  10. #20
    Senior Member Samurai Drifter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Yes, for people who know and accept Math.
    Whether or not someone knows or accepts math, if they take a rock in one hand and put it on the ground in front of them, and then take a rock in the other hand and put it next to the first rock, they will have increased the amount of rocks in front of them by a definite amount. They will have, in effect, have performed the numerical operation 1 + 1 = 2.

    Regardless of how much math a person knows, they will never be able to take a rock in each hand, place both on the ground in front of them, and end up with more than what we define as "2" rocks. They can call the number of rocks on the ground "3" or "4" or even "one billion," but it won't change the amount. It can't happen. Math is only subjective in what you choose to call the variables.

    Example:

    + =
    Hands in the air, it's a robbery.

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