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[ENTP] The Official ENTP Haters' Thread

onemoretime

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I got bored at "Thanks!", reading from bottom up. You'll have to summarize if you want me to pay attention. Highlight key sentences in bold or something.

Ummm... or you could read it. It'll take you five minutes, max.
 

polariswaterx666

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ur right, puppies are vital for the survival of the human race. Oh god, I can see the light now!

Why would you want survival for the human race aren't all races meant to finish at some point. I know racing snowmobiles would get old if it never ended. damnitt I want to see the finish of the human race it should be exciting.
 

polariswaterx666

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Guess it has to do in the end a lot with the person behind the type.

I hate the stereotypical views like "they like to argue or playing devils advocate". I neither like any of the two.

I think the wish to argue is a general thing of insecure people. Because if you trust in yourself, you dont have to constantly argue about your viewpoint.

The wish to debate on the other hand is something you must like. Like in the politics forums, where people debate all the day, but not doing anything practical.

So I am neither a fan of debate or arguing, but I'll admit, if I am drunk I like to behave like a martyr. I have to change that.


Wouldn't insecure people be less likely to argue? If I have an opinion I'm gonna say it like it or not at least I don't worry what other people think.
 

violet_crown

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Here's my issue with ENTPs. I get seriously annoyed, because it feels like even the most innocuous comment can get made into a knock-down drag out over what's generally a side issue. Then when in said argument, it never gets resolved because the ENTP will pick at tangents ad infinitum without ever really seeming to hear the other persons point. It is infuriating to me when this happens. The corollary to this being ENTPs (or actually NTPs period) always being the first to shit on someone elses effort to do something while they rarely if ever actualize half of the things they come up with.

The second issue I have is that for all their hypercritical tendencies when it comes to someone elses idea, they are never wrong. Ever. You are wrong, as it turns out. Or misunderstood them. Or arent smart enough to appreciate the deeper meaning of whatever theyve said. Or whatever. If youre going to talk mess, then you should be able to take it in stride when it comes back to you.

I like ENTPs. I think that theyre all the good things people say about them, but I hate how needlessly reactionary they seem to be be to just about everything.
 

jenocyde

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:huh: That's really funny, because I sincerely feel that way about xNTJs... It feels like xNTJs are quick to dismiss and then attack a person's intelligence or character, rather than the argument. I'm not saying this to be argumentative - I'm genuinely shocked, and it's interesting to hear your point of view. Either way, I guess it depends on the person in question... *shrugs*
 

violet_crown

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:huh: That's really funny, because I sincerely feel that way about xNTJs... It feels like xNTJs are quick to dismiss and then attack a person's intelligence or character, rather than the argument. I'm not saying this to be argumentative - I'm genuinely shocked, and it's interesting to hear your point of view. Either way, I guess it depends on the person in question... *shrugs*

Unfortunately I feel like you and I have had interactions that reflect both sides of this. Im not going to deny that ENTJs can be very callous in an argument, particularly a heated one. If I dont actively check myself, I turn into a drone in "big picture mode": there's a point, all action moves towards or away from that point, anything that encourages action away from the point is deeply agitating and must be neutralized. In other words, if what is to be gained from something as draining as a debate isnt of sufficient value, Ill curtail it. Its dismissive, but its more a comment on the idea than the person. If I say "This is the dumbest idea Ive ever heard" then I mean just that.

I still dont get why ENTPs feel the need to pick at minutia and drag them out to begin with though.
 

Athenian200

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Well, they're emotionally shallow and primitive creatures. Oh, wait, that applies to humanity in general. Never mind, I don't hate ENTPs specifically, I just hate people overall. :coffee:
 

violet_crown

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Then why waste time here in the first place? I would like not to waste so much time here myself.

Evidently the forum holds something of value for me. A lot of people here have interesting ideas. Nothing is more important than learning new ideas.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion. I could say plenty that I have not said, but what's the point? What good will it serve other than to further fuel this drain on precious time and energy?

I think people are free to say whatever they want. As I stated in my initial post I dislike when a person finds a need to criticize an idea on grounds that have little to do with the merit of the idea, or if people use debate for no reason other than debates sake rather than a genuine disagreement with the opposing side. I think debate should be an exchange of ideas rather than a way to show how intelligent you are. The later purpose is a waste, and something I sense occasionally when having a discussion with ENTPs.

All the same, I believe that what prompts an ENTP to debate or criticism is different than what motivates NTJs. I dont understand so basically have assumptions at this point. Im more than open to clarification though.


This after you intentionally push my buttons again. Why would you do that? To make me angry? You know what I could say about that. I don't have to say anything myself. The action speaks for itself.

:shock:

You having some kind of a flashback here, bud?
 

jenocyde

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I still dont get why ENTPs feel the need to pick at minutia and drag them out to begin with though.

Simply because we want to be understood.

I know it's annoying and I know it's tiring, but it's coming from a place of innocence. It's ok that we end up with whatever result we end up with, we don't have to agree - but I need to understand your point of view and I need you to understand where I am coming from.

Ti is almost compulsive that way. I've tried to tone it down, especially when I know the problem is already resolved, but it's hard to know that someone is just doing something to shut me up. It's more important for me that you understand why I think this way.

That's the reason why we can beat a point to death sometimes.
 
O

Oberon

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Speaking as an ENTP, I'm glad we're not a majority of the population.

That would be bad.
 

violet_crown

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Simply because we want to be understood.

I know it's annoying and I know it's tiring, but it's coming from a place of innocence. It's ok that we end up with whatever result we end up with, we don't have to agree - but I need to understand your point of view and I need you to understand where I am coming from.

Ti is almost compulsive that way. I've tried to tone it down, especially when I know the problem is already resolved, but it's hard to know that someone is just doing something to shut me up. It's more important for me that you understand why I think this way.

That's the reason why we can beat a point to death sometimes.

So from what youre saying, you guys go in with the same basic motivation of understanding the other side, but get lost down the rabbit hole after a certain point. Ok, I can see that. My question is then whats the middle ground? A Js natural tendency is going to be to either reign you back in or cut you loose, and would tend towards the latter. What would be your advice for me if Im trying to come to some kind of an understanding with an NTP that I have a disagreement with?
 

digesthisickness

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So from what youre saying, you guys go in with the same basic motivation of understanding the other side, but get lost down the rabbit hole after a certain point. Ok, I can see that. My question is then whats the middle ground? A Js natural tendency is going to be to either reign you back in or cut you loose, and would tend towards the latter. What would be your advice for me if Im trying to come to some kind of an understanding with an NTP that I have a disagreement with?

uh. if you don't like us, go away?
 

digesthisickness

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I dunno. ENTP Haters thread seems to be the right place for someone who dislikes ENTPs ;)

hate away, but for future reference, if you ask a question, someone might answer.

there's no law that says a middle ground has to be found. just walk away from us. we'll live.
 

jenocyde

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So from what youre saying, you guys go in with the same basic motivation of understanding the other side, but get lost down the rabbit hole after a certain point. Ok, I can see that. My question is then whats the middle ground? A Js natural tendency is going to be to either reign you back in or cut you loose, and would tend towards the latter. What would be your advice for me if Im trying to come to some kind of an understanding with an NTP that I have a disagreement with?

No, we don't get lost in the rabbit hole, per se. When we are explaining things, we may draw parallels - but if you start correcting/challenging the parallels, we have to defend those first before we can get back to where we started. But we always know the main point and it's clear to us.

Ok, let me stop using "we" because I shouldn't really speak for everyone else... I get frustrated with my ENTJ sis because whenever I say something, she says "I know, I know" when she clearly doesn't know. If she wants to avoid an explanation, she should just say "I know you are trying to make a point but honestly, I don't want to hear the details - so please, just get to the point" and that will put me right back on track. Because I hate long winded shit and I hate being long winded. If you are honest about not caring, I respect that and it makes me like you more actually, because I really don't like explaining shit. But if you engage me in an argument, you will get one until it is done.

Or she'll say "that idea won't work" and I want to know why she thinks that, but she won't explain it - she'll just shut it down and move on. This will piss me off. If I've worked on something for a while or thought a concept through and you see a flaw in my logic and don't tell me what it is... nothing, nothing will make me madder. Explain yourself or keep quiet in the first place. In other words, if you engage me in this type of conversation, prepare to explain yourself. And prepare to be challenged.

I would never drop "something horrible happened to me last week" to an ENFP unless I was prepared to talk about it, ya know? The key is to just stop engaging. Don't dismiss me - acknowledge that you see I'm trying to say something - and tell me that it's simply not important to you. It works because I don't want to waste your time, or mine.

EDIT: Digest has it exactly right, and did it more concisely than I did. Just say you're not interested and walk away.
 

substitute

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I still dont get why ENTPs feel the need to pick at minutia and drag them out to begin with though.

When I hear people say things like this to me, my honest feeling is along the lines that to ME, these things are NOT minutiae, because I've perceived a reason why they're actually quite important, and if they're not given proper attention, then the ENTJ's plan is going to go tits up. I feel frustrated that they won't make the leap of faith in me and just hear me out, whilst I explain why this is. Just because the explanation doesn't begin with something you instantly see as relevant, doesn't mean it wouldn't become clear if I got to say my whole point. But usually I don't, I get cut off and told it's irrelevant. edit - or, yes, like jenocyde said, I get led down a rabbit hole I had no intention of exploring by someone stopping me and interrupting to constantly nitpick at the analogies and parallels I use to explain myself. And then left down there while they walk away, saying they've had enough of me not getting to the point that they're not letting me get to!!!

Thankfully, the two ENTJ's that figure most in my life have learned to trust me and hear me out, and they've learned that usually when they think I'm just being critical for the sake of it, I've actually got the success of their project or whatever at heart. I'm not saying their idea is bad, I'm just saying that if it's to work the best it can, certain things need to be given due attention. Sure, I'm not always right - sometimes it turns out that my concerns were unwarranted. But they are concerns, not criticisms, and I'm expressing them because I'd feel like I wasn't being fair if I didn't.

My ENTJ's have learned the difference... but I still meet the odd one who hasn't. They feel to me like people who sorta... well, they seem to want me to sit there and listen to their plans, and if I spot major flaws in them or if I have prior experience in the area or anything useful to add, to just shut up and keep it to myself and watch them fail. I find it baffling.
 

jenocyde

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also, very very true, Sub.
 

violet_crown

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Jen and substitute: Thanks for clarifying for me

EDIT: Digest has it exactly right, and did it more concisely than I did. Just say you're not interested and walk away.

Haha I already do that just fine. Just though id seize the opportunity to see whats possible beyond my usual m.o.
 
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