[ENTP] The Official ENTP Haters' Thread

[onemoretime]

OneMoreTime - cliff notes?

I had a bit of a rough weekend and needed to vent a bit. This seemed like a good context.

 

[jenocyde]

I had a bit of a rough weekend and needed to vent a bit. This seemed like a good context.

It's all good, but I had a long day and couldn't read the whole thing. Can you give a general synopsis?

 

[BlahBlahNounBlah]

Suffering might not be the right characterization, as pain is something to be worked through. A constant frustration and annoyance at the things you have to put up with from others, on the other hand, does tend to stick with me.

We like people. We enjoy being around people. We're told all our lives to "be ourselves", and see others enjoying each other's company nearly effortlessly. We want to have a ton of interesting friends, and learn something new from them every day.

We've also been constantly told that our impulsivity is a huge problem, and that we're so bright, but if only we'd just apply ourselves (a completely alien concept). When not matching up to someone's completely arbitrary standard, we're told that we're just not trying hard enough (like you can scale the level of effort?). Our education system is only conducive to our learning style at very rare moments (where we pull out all stops), and the rest of the time, we're stuck with dull memorization of uninteresting subjects that weren't explained well to us at all (math as a process? really?).

We're confused to learn early on that our love of learning and talking about what we've learned are not shared by many people early on, and then conflicted further when we find out it's not very socially acceptable - this conflict lasts our entire lives in certain environments. Our great ideas are seen as strange and random by people who never comprehend that we've skipped a few steps in our heads, or intuitively noticed a connection that might not be immediately apparent.

We discuss, debate and challenge in order to learn, and are horribly confused when people take things seriously. Emotional reactions to everything completely flabbergast us, and we can't help but thinking that these reactions tend to be horribly selfish, as we retreat when emotional so as to not bother anyone with it. We're always the jerks if not constantly monitoring emotional states, and for a long time, the falseness of social conventions completely disgusts us, even as we comply with reservations. People love to question our decisions, seem to want to knock us down a peg, and grow resentful when it's proven correct, because 90% of the time it is correct.

We get to know people. We acquire large groups of friends. We don't necessarily hang out with a good percentage of those, since they're just the same as the rest of humanity in a different wrapper, and they've got nothing to offer us in the way of novelty, intrigue or stimulation. This is seen as cold and uncaring, as we're just supposed to enjoy others' company, even as their dullness rots at our brains. Our best friends, we're loyal to until the end. We go out of our way to find cool gifts and make meaningful gestures to demonstrate how we feel, and yet get in crap for forgetting holidays and birthdays. And yet, we still feel alienated, as it's so rare for us to experience the connection that seems immediately apparent between others.

In love with logic and rationale, and employing its use whenever possible to understand the world, people are inclined to think of us as heartless know-it-alls, moreso than the introverted types, as we actually try to interact with others and exercise our talents out of the sheer joy of it. Sometimes, they pick up on that joy and join the party - while we wonder if they're being sincere or laying it on thick. Relationships are a never ending sequence of meeting someone, and panicking as others start clinging so damn quickly. We don't even know these people yet, and the ones we do know and love have something against our enjoying each other physically, even though it brings such pleasure and expresses our feelings so well.

Still though, none of this really gets us down, because we truly think tomorrow will be better, because we have control of the future. No matter what, if we follow our noses, we'll either find our passion, or receive the recognition (no, understanding is the better word) that we've been looking for our entire life, or make that impact that will truly indicate that our time on Earth was worthwhile. People say we're selfish; perhaps, the problem is that we're particularly self-aware

I heard you and understood.

 

[jenocyde]

Oh dang, I read it. I should have read it sooner. Much props.
Thank you.

We discuss, debate and challenge in order to learn, and are horribly confused when people take things seriously.

people love to question our decisions, seem to want to knock us down a peg,

Man, you get a gold star.

 

[onemoretime]

- We like people and want to be around them. We perceive this to be effortless in others.

- Our natural impulsivity is seen as problematic by society. We don't "try hard enough". School is boring because it doesn't appeal to us

-Lifelong learning is not shared by all. Loving to learn things isn't socially acceptable. "You're so random"

-We like arguing. People get upset by this. Maudlin reactions appear selfish to us. We're called jerks if not constantly Fe-ing. Followers of conventions we revile. People wanting to show us up, and then being resented because it rarely happens.

-Large groups of friends, very few close ones. Limit contact because of boring similarities in people. This is mean; we're just supposed to enjoy people's company, even as it irritates us

-Endlessly loyal to best friends. Thoughtful when inspired, but forgetful of ritual, leading to strife. Still never feel connected to others like it appears with other people.

-We like logic. Others think we have no feelings. We enjoy using our talents. It's great when others share in our joy.

-Relationships are short and constantly fluctuating. Quick clinging scares the shit out of us. Close friends of appropriate sex seen as potential friends with benefits, we wonder why most recoil at the thought.

-We push on because tomorrow will be better, because we'll make it that way. We believe we'll find satisfaction eventually. Perceived selfishness is self-awareness, or the conflict between the rich inner Ti world and the Ne outer allure

 

[jenocyde]

I can't believe you actually summed it up for me! (even though I already read it)
You are amazing.

 

[onemoretime]

I can't believe you actually summed it up for me! (even though I already read it)
You are amazing.

It's much more understandable in that form anyway, and much less loaded with personal complexes and emotional baggage. Besides, you pointed out something very important - we're the type that tl,dr was invented by.

Thanks for the praise, I appreciate y'all's comments.

 

[yenom]

We discuss, debate and challenge in order to learn, and are horribly confused when people take things seriously. Emotional reactions to everything completely flabbergast us, and we can't help but thinking that these reactions tend to be horribly selfish, as we retreat when emotional so as to not bother anyone with it. We're always the jerks if not constantly monitoring emotional states, and for a long time, the falseness of social conventions completely disgusts us, even as we comply with reservations. People love to question our decisions, seem to want to knock us down a peg, and grow resentful when it's proven correct, because 90% of the time it is correct.

Some say we enjoy proving people wrong, but I debate because I want to learn the opposing point of view. If someone said they are competent and make claims about something, they better have evidence to prove they are correct. Nothing pisses me off more than people making claims without evidence. I really just want to learn the truth.

In love with logic and rationale, and employing its use whenever possible to understand the world, people are inclined to think of us as heartless know-it-alls, moreso than the introverted types, as we actually try to interact with others and exercise our talents out of the sheer joy of it. Sometimes, they pick up on that joy and join the party - while we wonder if they're being sincere or laying it on thick. Relationships are a never ending sequence of meeting someone, and panicking as others start clinging so damn quickly. We don't even know these people yet, and the ones we do know and love have something against our enjoying each other physically, even though it brings such pleasure and expresses our feelings so well.

I am not a know-it -all and don't claim to be one. However I absolutely hated people are wrong about something, but seem proud of portraying false ideas as facts. Only then do I poke holes in their argument and prove them wrong.

 

[Asterion]

Some say we enjoy proving people wrong, but I debate because I want to learn the opposing point of view. If someone said they are competent and make claims about something, they better have evidence to prove they are correct. Nothing pisses me off more than people making claims without evidence. I really just want to learn the truth.



I am not a know-it -all and don't claim to be one. However I absolutely hated people are wrong about something, but seem proud of portraying false ideas as facts. Only then do I poke holes in their argument and prove them wrong.

*edit: just realizes he's in the wrong thread* Wow, that's interesting, I wouldn't quite go so far to say that I hate it when people make false claims. I think I want what everyone wants, and that is the truth, unbiased information (I'm pretty certain that nobody wants to hear incorrect information)

 

[onemoretime]

I know what he's saying. It's the whole "don't feed me crap and tell me it's chocolate" thing. You can tell me something that's obviously bullshit, and I'll likely call you out on it, but if you say it's better that I just accept the BS for what it is, that's when the gloves come out.

Unfortunately, I think a lot of people would rather hear incorrect information if it confirms their view of reality, boosts their ego, or smooths out the social situation. I think we get in trouble because we genuinely try to help others in this situation, and they really don't want our help.

 

[EcK]

I think I want what everyone wants, and that is the truth, unbiased information (I'm pretty certain that nobody wants to hear incorrect information)

I think it's more like, people want to be right and confuse rightness with truth.
The desire for truth is generally related to our nature as social animals, statements can be confronted and have to be socially accepted to be rewarding to one's social status.
Control over information is control over culture, and our societies are obviously cultural.

Statements accepted as true simply 'work better', they don't necessary have to related to some experimentally definable reality empirical data.

 

[onemoretime]

I am not a know-it -all and don't claim to be one. However I absolutely hated people are wrong about something, but seem proud of portraying false ideas as facts. Only then do I poke holes in their argument and prove them wrong.

No offense, but yeah, you are. We all are. That's pretty much the curse of our type. We're so good at developing connections and patterns of recognition between facts that we seem to always have more pertinent info for any given situation. In the eyes of non-ENTPs, that's called being a know-it-all.

 

[jenocyde]

Unfortunately, I think a lot of people would rather hear incorrect information if it confirms their view of reality, boosts their ego, or smooths out the social situation. I think we get in trouble because we genuinely try to help others in this situation, and they really don't want our help.

you are on a roll tonight.

You are kind of like misunderstood aliens, who mostly mean well, but good lord you can wreck havoc.

There is a lot of truth to this.

So much of what you do gets misread, misunderstood, misinterpreted. You guys do odd shit to try and fit with society's rules and you just kinda get screwed.

Some of you guys get really fucking destructive trying to pull this off.

Even more truth.

don't worry, Ne monster. i get what you're saying.

 

[violet_crown]

Suffering might not be the right characterization, as pain is something to be worked through. A constant frustration and annoyance at the things you have to put up with from others, on the other hand, does tend to stick with me.

We like people. We enjoy being around people. We're told all our lives to "be ourselves", and see others enjoying each other's company nearly effortlessly. We want to have a ton of interesting friends, and learn something new from them every day.

We've also been constantly told that our impulsivity is a huge problem, and that we're so bright, but if only we'd just apply ourselves (a completely alien concept). When not matching up to someone's completely arbitrary standard, we're told that we're just not trying hard enough (like you can scale the level of effort?). Our education system is only conducive to our learning style at very rare moments (where we pull out all stops), and the rest of the time, we're stuck with dull memorization of uninteresting subjects that weren't explained well to us at all (math as a process? really?).

We're confused to learn early on that our love of learning and talking about what we've learned are not shared by many people early on, and then conflicted further when we find out it's not very socially acceptable - this conflict lasts our entire lives in certain environments. Our great ideas are seen as strange and random by people who never comprehend that we've skipped a few steps in our heads, or intuitively noticed a connection that might not be immediately apparent.

We discuss, debate and challenge in order to learn, and are horribly confused when people take things seriously. Emotional reactions to everything completely flabbergast us, and we can't help but thinking that these reactions tend to be horribly selfish, as we retreat when emotional so as to not bother anyone with it. We're always the jerks if not constantly monitoring emotional states, and for a long time, the falseness of social conventions completely disgusts us, even as we comply with reservations. People love to question our decisions, seem to want to knock us down a peg, and grow resentful when it's proven correct, because 90% of the time it is correct.

We get to know people. We acquire large groups of friends. We don't necessarily hang out with a good percentage of those, since they're just the same as the rest of humanity in a different wrapper, and they've got nothing to offer us in the way of novelty, intrigue or stimulation. This is seen as cold and uncaring, as we're just supposed to enjoy others' company, even as their dullness rots at our brains. Our best friends, we're loyal to until the end. We go out of our way to find cool gifts and make meaningful gestures to demonstrate how we feel, and yet get in crap for forgetting holidays and birthdays. And yet, we still feel alienated, as it's so rare for us to experience the connection that seems immediately apparent between others.

In love with logic and rationale, and employing its use whenever possible to understand the world, people are inclined to think of us as heartless know-it-alls, moreso than the introverted types, as we actually try to interact with others and exercise our talents out of the sheer joy of it. Sometimes, they pick up on that joy and join the party - while we wonder if they're being sincere or laying it on thick. Relationships are a never ending sequence of meeting someone, and panicking as others start clinging so damn quickly. We don't even know these people yet, and the ones we do know and love have something against our enjoying each other physically, even though it brings such pleasure and expresses our feelings so well.

Still though, none of this really gets us down, because we truly think tomorrow will be better, because we have control of the future. No matter what, if we follow our noses, we'll either find our passion, or receive the recognition (no, understanding is the better word) that we've been looking for our entire life, or make that impact that will truly indicate that our time on Earth was worthwhile. People say we're selfish; perhaps, the problem is that we're particularly self-aware

You're killin' me softly here man.

 

[EcK]

I like how this thread is all about hating entps. I deeply enjoyed the few rantings about 'us' actually, laughed alot. I just never get why people take personal attacks so personaly. Wierd.

nice posts onemoretime, i could pretty much relate to everything you said.
Also, I just remembered I was the one who started that tread, so yay me.

Off for/to my morning cardio.
Love and hugs

 

[jenocyde]

I *hate* how modest we are.

 

[EcK]

I *hate* how modest we are.

'll have to take a raincheck on that modesty thing. I don't get what all the hype's about, I mean, past the whole nietzschean slave morality 'ow please, let me feel guilty about everything I do' BDSM guilt trip our civilization has going on.

 

[Qre:us]

A constant frustration and annoyance at the things you have to put up with from others, on the other hand, does tend to stick with me.

I could put up with this from those I consider close - to a certain extent, and those that I do not know - to a lesser (but still existent) extent. As I understand and assume that we all see from very different angles and one of my greatest curiosity is understanding another's (espcially foreign to me) angle.

But, when it does becoming annoying and frustrating, for me is, especially when I see the same effort in understanding is not being reciprocated.

We've also been constantly told that our impulsivity is a huge problem, and that we're so bright, but if only we'd just apply ourselves (a completely alien concept).

I'm told that I'm 'chaos' and way too random, which apparently hinders me being from being productive - but, what they don't get is, it's only unproductive because the demands of the system are often times, rather random itself...and unlike us newwink, sometimes, quite tediously so without logical justification.

When not matching up to someone's completely arbitrary standard, we're told that we're just not trying hard enough (like you can scale the level of effort?).

Exactly.

Our education system is only conducive to our learning style at very rare moments (where we pull out all stops), and the rest of the time, we're stuck with dull memorization of uninteresting subjects that weren't explained well to us at all (math as a process? really?).

YES! And, those rare moment happen because either/and: (A) I want to shut up the skeptics and prove that if I want, I CAN do it, it's just I don't have the motivation to....(B) the hounds of hell are at my heels and there's no other way to find a short-cut, i.e., cornering myself - of its most notable and repeated example, procastinating until the 11th hour and then going crazy mad focused to produce a work that is supposed to take 4 weeks, and completing within 12 hours, say.

Our great ideas are seen as strange and random by people who never comprehend that we've skipped a few steps in our heads, or intuitively noticed a connection that might not be immediately apparent.

This cannot be highlighted enough. Esp. when I engage in debate, sometimes, I am seen as random, jumping all over the place, bringing in 'unrelated' points...but, it's just that the connection seems so evident/apparent, that I can't figure out how the other doesn't see it (hence, not clearly and systematically outlining, i.e., skipping steps).

Or the other gets bogged down with mundane regurgitative details without seeing the big-picture. I don't understand debating to just reiterate what is [what's the point of reinventing the wheel? to seem like you 'know stuff'? no, you only prove that you memorize stuff, true knowledge is expansive unto itself]. I debate to explore potentials (ramifications) of what is (and where the holes are).

We discuss, debate and challenge in order to learn, and are horribly confused when people take things seriously. Emotional reactions to everything completely flabbergast us, and we can't help but thinking that these reactions tend to be horribly selfish, as we retreat when emotional so as to not bother anyone with it.

I have a 'jerky' habit of playing off/into others emotional reactions...for my personal amusement, but, it's really a comment from me of: you've made it personal, here we go again! And, rather than frustration, I just amp it up for my amusement....hence:

We're always the jerks if not constantly monitoring emotional states, and for a long time, the falseness of social conventions completely disgusts us, even as we comply with reservations. People love to question our decisions, seem to want to knock us down a peg, and grow resentful when it's proven correct, because 90% of the time it is correct.

We get to know people. We acquire large groups of friends. We don't necessarily hang out with a good percentage of those, since they're just the same as the rest of humanity in a different wrapper, and they've got nothing to offer us in the way of novelty, intrigue or stimulation.

Actually, sometimes, for the hell of it, I will make it my 'mission' to find the ONE quirk about a person that seems so blatanly blah.

Although:

This is seen as cold and uncaring, as we're just supposed to enjoy others' company, even as their dullness rots at our brains.

I've been known to be quite dimissive when people start talking of mundane bullshit like, how was your day? what did you do? Did you know this person did this? That? I detest small talk that goes nowhere in terms of investigating some bigger idea, connection, introspection. It's like, I almost want to ask (and once in a whille, if they're close enough, or they're irking me enough, I ask): And, your point with this is....?

Our best friends, we're loyal to until the end. We go out of our way to find cool gifts and make meaningful gestures to demonstrate how we feel, and yet get in crap for forgetting holidays and birthdays.

Yes, at the bolded. My 3 best friends (we're a foursome circle) have devised a system just to aid me in this. Each is responsible for another's birthday reminder towards me, 1 day ahead. 1 for 2. 2 for 3. and, 3 for 1.

I my friends, and, I will know and take time and care to show that in my own way. Like them randomly mentioning an upcoming stressful date (say, a parent's doctor's appointment that's important), or a test date that they're stressing over...I don't know how, but, I weirdly can remember those dates, even if months later, and will inquire post-date, or wish them well before. They're quite suprised at this paradox about me.

And yet, we still feel alienated, as it's so rare for us to experience the connection that seems immediately apparent between others.

Sometimes (often times) I feel like an audience to my own life, like as if I spend a significant amount of time viewing it from others', many perspectives, that, what my core perspective is, is hard to pinpoint. So, I think I help in my own alienation in those rare moments when such thought induces melancholy, but, mostly, it's an observation that induces a mental response of: 'Huh, interesting.' And nothing more emotional than that. I actually want to change this aspect to a certain degree.

Still though, none of this really gets us down, because we truly think tomorrow will be better, because we have control of the future. No matter what, if we follow our noses, we'll either find our passion, or receive the recognition (no, understanding is the better word) that we've been looking for our entire life, or make that impact that will truly indicate that our time on Earth was worthwhile. People say we're selfish; perhaps, the problem is that we're particularly self-aware

The bolded 3 points really resonate with me. For the last one, I would say, I'm not as self-aware as I am aware. Thanks for putting this perspective so eloquently...hah, there's one perspective afterall.


Or...is there?

 

[jenocyde]

'll have to take a raincheck on that modesty thing. I don't get what all the hype's about, I mean, past the whole nietzschean slave morality 'ow please, let me feel guilty about everything I do' BDSM guilt trip our civilization has going on.

I'm right there with ya, buddy!

 

[onemoretime]

Admit it, you've caught yourself annoyed with someone because they have such a "peasant mindset" about things. Embrace the elitism!