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  1. #571
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-up Rex View Post
    I still dont get why ENTPs feel the need to pick at minutia and drag them out to begin with though.
    Simply because we want to be understood.

    I know it's annoying and I know it's tiring, but it's coming from a place of innocence. It's ok that we end up with whatever result we end up with, we don't have to agree - but I need to understand your point of view and I need you to understand where I am coming from.

    Ti is almost compulsive that way. I've tried to tone it down, especially when I know the problem is already resolved, but it's hard to know that someone is just doing something to shut me up. It's more important for me that you understand why I think this way.

    That's the reason why we can beat a point to death sometimes.

  2. #572
    Oberon
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    Speaking as an ENTP, I'm glad we're not a majority of the population.

    That would be bad.

  3. #573
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Simply because we want to be understood.

    I know it's annoying and I know it's tiring, but it's coming from a place of innocence. It's ok that we end up with whatever result we end up with, we don't have to agree - but I need to understand your point of view and I need you to understand where I am coming from.

    Ti is almost compulsive that way. I've tried to tone it down, especially when I know the problem is already resolved, but it's hard to know that someone is just doing something to shut me up. It's more important for me that you understand why I think this way.

    That's the reason why we can beat a point to death sometimes.
    So from what youre saying, you guys go in with the same basic motivation of understanding the other side, but get lost down the rabbit hole after a certain point. Ok, I can see that. My question is then whats the middle ground? A Js natural tendency is going to be to either reign you back in or cut you loose, and would tend towards the latter. What would be your advice for me if Im trying to come to some kind of an understanding with an NTP that I have a disagreement with?

  4. #574
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-up Rex View Post
    So from what youre saying, you guys go in with the same basic motivation of understanding the other side, but get lost down the rabbit hole after a certain point. Ok, I can see that. My question is then whats the middle ground? A Js natural tendency is going to be to either reign you back in or cut you loose, and would tend towards the latter. What would be your advice for me if Im trying to come to some kind of an understanding with an NTP that I have a disagreement with?
    uh. if you don't like us, go away?
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  5. #575
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    uh. if you don't like us, go away?
    I dunno. ENTP Haters thread seems to be the right place for someone who dislikes ENTPs

  6. #576
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-up Rex View Post
    I dunno. ENTP Haters thread seems to be the right place for someone who dislikes ENTPs
    hate away, but for future reference, if you ask a question, someone might answer.

    there's no law that says a middle ground has to be found. just walk away from us. we'll live.
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  7. #577
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-up Rex View Post
    So from what youre saying, you guys go in with the same basic motivation of understanding the other side, but get lost down the rabbit hole after a certain point. Ok, I can see that. My question is then whats the middle ground? A Js natural tendency is going to be to either reign you back in or cut you loose, and would tend towards the latter. What would be your advice for me if Im trying to come to some kind of an understanding with an NTP that I have a disagreement with?
    No, we don't get lost in the rabbit hole, per se. When we are explaining things, we may draw parallels - but if you start correcting/challenging the parallels, we have to defend those first before we can get back to where we started. But we always know the main point and it's clear to us.

    Ok, let me stop using "we" because I shouldn't really speak for everyone else... I get frustrated with my ENTJ sis because whenever I say something, she says "I know, I know" when she clearly doesn't know. If she wants to avoid an explanation, she should just say "I know you are trying to make a point but honestly, I don't want to hear the details - so please, just get to the point" and that will put me right back on track. Because I hate long winded shit and I hate being long winded. If you are honest about not caring, I respect that and it makes me like you more actually, because I really don't like explaining shit. But if you engage me in an argument, you will get one until it is done.

    Or she'll say "that idea won't work" and I want to know why she thinks that, but she won't explain it - she'll just shut it down and move on. This will piss me off. If I've worked on something for a while or thought a concept through and you see a flaw in my logic and don't tell me what it is... nothing, nothing will make me madder. Explain yourself or keep quiet in the first place. In other words, if you engage me in this type of conversation, prepare to explain yourself. And prepare to be challenged.

    I would never drop "something horrible happened to me last week" to an ENFP unless I was prepared to talk about it, ya know? The key is to just stop engaging. Don't dismiss me - acknowledge that you see I'm trying to say something - and tell me that it's simply not important to you. It works because I don't want to waste your time, or mine.

    EDIT: Digest has it exactly right, and did it more concisely than I did. Just say you're not interested and walk away.

  8. #578
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-up Rex View Post
    I still dont get why ENTPs feel the need to pick at minutia and drag them out to begin with though.
    When I hear people say things like this to me, my honest feeling is along the lines that to ME, these things are NOT minutiae, because I've perceived a reason why they're actually quite important, and if they're not given proper attention, then the ENTJ's plan is going to go tits up. I feel frustrated that they won't make the leap of faith in me and just hear me out, whilst I explain why this is. Just because the explanation doesn't begin with something you instantly see as relevant, doesn't mean it wouldn't become clear if I got to say my whole point. But usually I don't, I get cut off and told it's irrelevant. edit - or, yes, like jenocyde said, I get led down a rabbit hole I had no intention of exploring by someone stopping me and interrupting to constantly nitpick at the analogies and parallels I use to explain myself. And then left down there while they walk away, saying they've had enough of me not getting to the point that they're not letting me get to!!!

    Thankfully, the two ENTJ's that figure most in my life have learned to trust me and hear me out, and they've learned that usually when they think I'm just being critical for the sake of it, I've actually got the success of their project or whatever at heart. I'm not saying their idea is bad, I'm just saying that if it's to work the best it can, certain things need to be given due attention. Sure, I'm not always right - sometimes it turns out that my concerns were unwarranted. But they are concerns, not criticisms, and I'm expressing them because I'd feel like I wasn't being fair if I didn't.

    My ENTJ's have learned the difference... but I still meet the odd one who hasn't. They feel to me like people who sorta... well, they seem to want me to sit there and listen to their plans, and if I spot major flaws in them or if I have prior experience in the area or anything useful to add, to just shut up and keep it to myself and watch them fail. I find it baffling.
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  9. #579
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    also, very very true, Sub.

  10. #580
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Jen and substitute: Thanks for clarifying for me

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    EDIT: Digest has it exactly right, and did it more concisely than I did. Just say you're not interested and walk away.
    Haha I already do that just fine. Just though id seize the opportunity to see whats possible beyond my usual m.o.

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