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  1. #511
    ..... Intricate Mystic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Maybe I worded it too convolutedly, but it seems we both do the same thing. :happy
    I.e., I look for something unusual (a quirk, at least one) in a person that superficially appears, on the surface (seems), to be blatantly 'normal' (blah).
    Awesome

  2. #512
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Thanks for taking the time out to write a thoughtful response. Much appreciated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    :
    E.g., my xSxx best friend - she assumes my motives/intention and builds a whole scenario out of that. My exact words to her: Please do not assume this is what I meant, ask me and I'll elaborate, but, when you assume and make a commentary based primarily on your assumption it does three things. One, blows the issue to even bigger, and less manageable heights. Two, makes me feel disrespected because my literal words were not enough to convince you, and you believed otherwise, so I feel helpless because other than words, I don't know how else to state my case. And, three, it makes me irritated that I have to defend myself against something I didn't do/think. Do you think any of those feelings of mine are wrong to have, given your assumptions?

    Her: no.

    Yet, she does it again.
    That would really suck. I have this problem with a member of my family who means the world to me but just does not value my words when I am clearly expressing discontent. I have taken to repeating myself and saying, you know, like I told you last week when we talked about this issue.

    About building entire scenarios in her head about what you may be experiencing, well feelers *do* that, don't they? We suck like that. It's entertainment and a natural process for us even though we're often quite mistaken and really should stop. A little self-awareness on our part in these matters would help. Are you sure she's an E? In my experience, Es are better at confronting early? Maybe that's just my experience with ENFPs and INFPs -- the Is seem to let things fester and build up impossible scenarios much more than we do.

    On the conversation with Shimmy,

    Another example, I've said to a guy, point blank, and exact words, "I like you, do you like me? If not, can you tell me why not?"
    I actually remember reading this and going, wow, this is exactly what has gone through my head so many times and I have wished I could have said this. It's getting feedback which is so essential to us. Props to you for actually saying this. If the person doesn't like us then having them explain why could hardly be harmful as long as we are open to listening. Clearly, if you asked, you would have been. I see no problem here at all. Directness, in my book, gets bonus points. Actually, now that I come to think about it, when I turn people down, I almost always send them feedback It's my version of giving something back.


    So, my conclusion? The casual directness with which I address something, maybe because it's not the norm, gets re-interpreted and translated 10 ways to Sunday by the other, until what I actually said is just a hazy mess that's overlooked?
    The only thing I can think of here is that the Fe savvy ENTPs may sometimes sugar coat what they are saying (not in their own views but for NFs or perhaps Fs in general there is always room for interpretation - remember our covnersation way back when about breakup methods). If possible, don't do that with your friend. Don't leave any open windows for interpretation. That's all that strikes me right now.



    Yup, and, I try to see how they derived at the conclusion that they did, their different interpretations, and I dunno about your other ENTP friends, but, I do discuss those possible interpretations with them as well, and, add why there's holes in such interpretations given what happened/what I/we said.

    When I leave, it is when there's defensiveness about my attempt to do multiple interpretations of the scenario (maybe, the way I come at it - they take it personally, when I'm just testing out different thoughts, and they feel it's a challenge/debate? I can be quite "assertively" focused when taking apart ideas/thoughts), and they start saying why X interpretation isn't *exactly* the case. Well, how about you just telling me what your exact interpretation was, rather than ridiculously and ineffectively clinging to 'defensive mode' and pointing out why *one*, *two*, *three* of my hypothesized interpretations aren't exactly it. You know, save time and headache?
    I wish more ENTPS did this. I know the NFs in their lives would be SO much happier...

    I guess I should consider this, that even if the other isn't receptive, it doesn't mean it's not going through....for that, I'd need patience with emotions. Something that I know I must cultivate. It just doesn't logically makes sense of why I would put in the effort when the other isn't yet, ready nor willingly to engage? I don't want to force anyone's hand, draw them out beyond their 'comfort zone'...it seems manipulative and forced. And, not very appealing to me. Can you make a case for this, as I know I get told by others to have patience with them (esp. when they are being 'emotionally stubborn', etc)...because I tend to very quickly, and without much fanfare, say, "Fuck that shit," and walk away.
    I think people process differently. My INFJ brother, for instance, will always react defensively when I first bring things up, without much emotion attached and as matter-of-factly as possible at my end to avoid build-up. We both know what's going on. His first reaction is always, even after so many years, one of being defensive but we're both always glad we spoke. And to date, to his credit, he always incorporates whatever it was that I brought up, if reasonable into our interactions. There is a behavior/attitude change if the demand was reasonable even if that was not first expressed. I get that it's just his reaction and that he needs to go away and think about things on his own terms. A second conversation will often follow with resolution for both of us. Patience is key for real change at both ends. I know my first reaction was defense too some years ago but I've worked on that a lot at my end. Also with age, things roll off my back easier than they used to. I'm also more open to other people's opinions and see them as valuable in bettering myself.


    I'd be jumping with joy if the other pointed out the pieces...evolution of conflict, rather than stagnation and going round and round in defensive, emotionally overloaded circles. However, I've seen most don't as much as they are about proving my *points* wrong, when they could/should also invest that time in proving THEIR pov right.
    Yeah, waiting is key on the first part. Fair enough on the second, although both would need to be done for a good argument.


    Yes, but, only if I get the vibe that I'm not going against a losing battle...i.e., the other is willing to aid me in developing the full picture efficiently, without any emotional bullshit (I think, one of my faults is that, I often see emotional overload for a 'given situation', which obviously is through my own measuring scale, as trying to manipulate me)
    This is such a communication problem between thinkers and feelers where the show of emotion becomes either manipulative or a sign of weakness to the thinker. Often, feelers are okay showing emotion and continuing the discussion. Its just a natural reaction at their end as detaching would be at yours to get a better understanding. Both are working through the process they know best.

    * I have said to an ex-friend in an argument, "Don't think that just because you cry harder, it makes your point any more valid."
    Point taken and noted. Conversely, I've said to an NT friend, don't think that you're a better debater that your point is more valid, it's just that you are a good debater. Wow, we've sure been working on different sides of the divide haven't we. I vote for us to mediate across this divide. We'd probably do a decent job.

    I got called an evil heartless bitch for that and a glass (filled with coke, no less, I tell you) thrown at me.
    That's not cool in any situation and reflects the emotional unbalanced nature of the person. WOW.

    * My INFP mom and I got into an argument once while shopping for gardening plants, and, me trying to reason with her just made her more and more emotional, so, I suggested we just go home as this was going nowhere fast. She told me that she refuses to go back with me in the car. I tried, once, twice, thrice, and every time, she vehemently said, she WILL NOT GO BACK WITH ME. So...I left (her there). I got an earful from my ESTJ dad, when my defense was, "I did what she TOLD ME." To where, a few years later, and my dad still remembers. Such that recently when my dad was going away for a month, leaving me and my mom to manage for ourselves while he's away, one of his instructions to me was, "Be nice to your mom and don't leave her stranded anywhere, no matter what she says." Oie vey.

    I don't understand why people say things they don't mean or act to emotionally exacerbate a situation. And, if they say it to manipulate me (aka, my pov, as I see it), that's the fastest way to get me to desert the situation (and them).
    Thank you for sharing this. It was, at my end, very sweet and such a great example of NT-NF problems. I don't know your mom so anything I say should be taken with a large grain of kosher salt.

    I'm guessing, were I in her shoes, that she just wanted to discuss the issue with you further but didn't think you were listening to her POV either. It expresses great frustration at her end. I'm not sure if the aim was manipulative except in the sense that she needed to get that resolved before you went away. If, instead of leaving her there, which by the way I may have been liable to do as well, you would have said something about understanding that she was frustrated and you were too and that you really wanted to talk with her about it when you both got home and could do that at leisure after cool drinks of water, do you think she would have agreed to go home with you?


    I can see that, and I'd actually say that I see it as group work first too, and, when group work doesn't seem to be a receptive medium, I rather just tie my end up and let the other deal with theirs how they see fit. I guess it comes down to patience and the 'putting up with emotional stuff' (my word - stuff=bullshit )..I have a lot less threshold for it, than you do. Any suggestions on how to convince my brain to have such patience?
    At my end, I just have to continuously remind myself of how important the person is to me and thus it is important that they get my side. Also, leaving could be construed as an unwillingness to engage and thus a lack of investment in the person. That would be hurtful. Hurtful things can't be remedied quickly. A small measure of patience now could save a really long term hurt for the other person. Get the Fe involved. It's also about doing what you do best naturally, sharing knowledge and getting the other person to share their side. Just acknowledge they process differently.


    Thanks for actually being the first (if I can recall) in this great big thread to address a concern with the real aim to understand. It's easy for us ENTPs to take the ribbing as jokes in stride, and this entp, at least, appeciates being (sometimes) cornered in seriousness when it comes to the realm of introspection. <- emotional bullshit stuff quota of the day, savour the flavour
    The flavor (particularly your spelling of it) was much savored as a reminder of another place so far away from here.

  3. #513
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I don't understand what you mean by this. Hypothetically, if we all agreed to feel the same way, then all of us are not self-aware? What makes you so aware of ourselves better than we are? I'm being serious, not snarky - promise.
    I take you absolutely seriously, as always.

    No, what I meant was there's a tendency for our own type (whichever that may be) to confirm and sometimes enable our flaws as much as our strengths. This is not always helpful to the person in achieving real self-awareness. If we all share a flaw and we all confirm that it's okay to continue with that flaw in denial then it may hinder our own awareness of how this 'flaw' affects other people and more importantly, ourselves. I cringe when anyone declares themselves particularly self-aware. In my view, that's declaring omniscience about oneself (whoever the self might be). There's always things to learn aren't there and consequently, always things we may have missed. I'm not saying I know better but I am saying I find it hard to believe - hence the request for humility.

    If I came across as saying I was more aware of you (particularly as a group) than you are, that would be a miscommunication and condescending - something I alluded to as pretty deplorable in NFs (owning that flaw in my type) in the same post and was trying to avoid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    I think, when I read that passage of onemore's, and agreed, I made a clear distinction between debating (views) and decisions. I don't see these two things as the same. I do want people to challenge my views (i.e., through debate), but, my decisions (made a stand towards a certain action), esp. when the other comes from a place of patronizing, or, when not asked for their opinion on my decisions, are often times (exception: those close enough to me in that way), off-limits. I like to have the results speak for themselves. And, THEN...we can talk.
    That helps. It's the questioning of personal choices and decisions you bristle at which is perfectly understandable.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlahBlahNounBlah View Post
    Speaking for myself only:

    - Even when I think I am right, I am aware of the possibility of being wrong. I do not ever forget this.

    - I do not dwell on my successes or failures because I don't think they truly matter. I also don't think others' successes are any more or less worth dwelling on. Isn't this the essence of humility?

    - I do not take pride in apathy. I have feelings, but I think that the expression of certain feelings is selfish and indulgent. When I've let my feelings penetrate someone else's existence in a negative way, I've tried to learn from this to prevent it happening in the future. When I'm happy, everyone I'm around knows it. And I feel this every day.

    - I do not like boring people. I think the society needs them, but why should I pretend to have a personal interest in them when I don't? But my definition of interesting includes an enormous variety of people. I'm also aware that my definition of interesting is subjective.


    Just seemed like a thing to say.
    I admire all of these traits in ENTPs. The last one was just funny - society needs boring people There are people who find you or me boring as well (subjective as you said) -- I'm glad there is a place in society for us both in spite of this.

  4. #514
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    I think, when I read that passage of onemore's, and agreed, I made a clear distinction between debating (views) and decisions. I don't see these two things as the same. I do want people to challenge my views (i.e., through debate), but, my decisions (made a stand towards a certain action), esp. when the other comes from a place of patronizing, or, when not asked for their opinion on my decisions, are often times (exception: those close enough to me in that way), off-limits. I like to have the results speak for themselves. And, THEN...we can talk.
    What She said. One's intellectual, the other social dominance and positioning.

  5. #515
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    I take you absolutely seriously, as always.

    No, what I meant was there's a tendency for our own type (whichever that may be) to confirm and sometimes enable our flaws as much as our strengths. This is not always helpful to the person in achieving real self-awareness. If we all share a flaw and we all confirm that it's okay to continue with that flaw in denial then it may hinder our own awareness of how this 'flaw' affects other people and more importantly, ourselves. I cringe when anyone declares themselves particularly self-aware. In my view, that's declaring omniscience about oneself (whoever the self might be). There's always things to learn aren't there and consequently, always things we may have missed. I'm not saying I know better but I am saying I find it hard to believe - hence the request fro humility.
    There is always something to learn and change and grow - that knowledge is in our very nature. And because I know that, doesn't that make me aware of myself - even if I don't wish to change my behavior? Just because I have behaviors that you don't like doesn't mean that I'm not aware of it or that they are flaws.

    The thing is that flaws are highly subjective. And what ENFPs don't like about me, INTPs might. So I ask myself if I should I pull more Fe to be more palatable to everyone, or just be myself and let chips fall where they may? Because I can't be all things to all people, I tend to choose the latter. I just can't be bothered with everyone else's opinion of me, unless I intend to make that person a focal point in my life. In which case, I would hope that we would both adjust for each other as the need arises.

    I guess we have different opinions on what self awareness is? You associate it with humility whereas I associate it with acceptance.

  6. #516
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    What he she said.

  7. #517
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    <--- past his bedtime, and it shows

  8. #518
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    So now being honest is arrogance? Judgment without consideration of the other's perspective is a very boring and irritating trend, and yes, it's something to put up with. I'm not talking about both ends right now, so that's irrelevant. Do I give myself credit for putting up with others? No, as it's just a part of life. Why should others be congratulated for something to be expected as part of the daily routine?
    I saw arrogance as reflected in your statements (as honest as they may have been). You expressed judgment of the people you spoke of. It's not irrelevant to talk of the other end because that's what makes the interaction work. You may not give yourself credit for putting up with others but you certainly complained about it! I just pointed out that others probably do as well. No bouquets required but that awareness usually tempers our end of seeing our great sacrifice in putting up with others as something warranting sympathy.

    Yeah, "great" ideas. Why? Because they're 1. Fun and enjoyable and 2. They work. God forbid I want to share things I find pleasurable with others.
    By all means share your pleasurable ideas with others - being fun and enjoyable do not make them great however. That's a leap of faith you made all on your own.


    There's a difference between debating ideas for the sake of debating ideas, and denigrating an idea or opinion for the sake of knocking someone down a peg. Even if you may not recognize that, it's something that we're particularly attune to. Trust me on this one. It's not overconfidence on the 90%, either - it's very rare that we'll blurt something out that doesn't have a particular level of truth that is perhaps not immediately apparent. Such as a kid seeing a green car going by and shouting out "It's blue!" and being chided for it, the parent not realizing that the kid was noticing the blue bag in the front seat.
    You have a point here. If the person's only agenda is bringing you down then it's not an honest debate or discussion. Having said that, your example of the child with the car -- as an ENFP, I give that benefit of doubt to everyone. There is, of course, some truth (however personal) in everyone's opinions/views. That doesn't lead me to think that I'm right 90% of the time. on the contrary, it makes me, as Blah...said, open to the idea that I may not be. "Trust me" is hardly reliable as evidence, even in a hypothetical discussion.

    Well, the difference is that the world of ideas is practically infinite, and new things can be discovered every day. Getting to know a person is part of this process, however, Ne and Ti have a way of categorizing people fairly quickly. This can backfire often, but generally, it is pretty good at determining who'll be continually interesting as time goes on. The novelty factor isn't so much from overfamiliarity as much as it is an excess of time spent together. You'll always find something new and interesting to talk about with good friends, simply because you tend to self-select in the process.
    Ne and Ti/Ne and Fi/ whatever function suit your fancy --- everyone has a process of selecting people they choose to spend time with that works for them. What makes your process special or more reliable? Do other people like hanging out with people they find uninteresting?

    As far as being dull, yes, most people are rather dull, self-absorbed, concerned with things I find inane, and in a truly honest way, a waste of my time. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean I think they're bad people. They're just generally people who'll never know me very well, and likewise, would find me draining on anything more than a superficial level (for example, talk politics with an SJ who's on the opposite side as you... it always leads to me just nodding and smiling). That's good, because they also tend to be great at things that I am unable to do because of the particular quirks of my personality.
    Again, not particularly unique as a viewpoint. People who are tangential to our lives are seen this way likely by most people.

    The problem with alienation isn't so much that I don't make the effort, as much as it may seem, even when I do feel a closeness with someone, I still feel restricted by both social convention and consideration of their feelings. If I have to hold back, then I don't feel as close as I should. Likewise, if you're brutally candid without allowing me the same, then I'm going to have a real problem with you. Tert Fe can only do so much, and yes, it's fake as all hell. I am considering your feelings, but at the same time mad because I can't help you.
    This seems unfortunate. Real closeness usually implies candidness on both sides. I don't know the situation to really be able to comment on this but yes, it seems unfair. I'm not sure why you feel like you are bound by social conventions with these people you feel close to? Is it by their admission or your assumption? Just wondering aloud.

    You've equally hit on the other end - that we have to operate by your rules. Your rules are no more "right" than ours, and yet when we have a different view on things, somehow we're always the assholes. It's not that we don't know the consequences of those actions emotionally - there's that robot assumption - it's that these consequences have been permutated through our brains over and over to where it makes the most sense. You think I don't wake up the next morning concerned as hell that I did something wrong and she'll get pregnant, because you can never be sure with birth control...etc? That's Ne and Ti going like crazy. Likewise, in my statement, I was merely offering my perspective on the situation without any emotional attachment, and you're still saying that I'm being a know-it-all... no, I'm just telling you how I think! As I mentioned in another thread, NFs are often right about those intuitions, it's just none of their goddamn business. And yes, we often do consider why others will disagree - it just becomes part of the job to convince them otherwise.
    Actually that wasn't my point at all. Why is this a zero sum game - your rules or mine. The point I was trying to make was that these rules should be a product of mutual discussion and desires. Either side deciding for the other seems strange, right?

    On the pregnancy part, honestly, that's considering possible consequences which is very Ne/Ti but not really her emotions by any stretch of the imagination. It's interesting you equate them.

    On NFs being right about intuitions and yet it being none of their business - guilty and noted, often. It's a core ability and terribly annoying when not solicited. True.



    When I mean self-aware, I mean that we have a greater understanding of how external stimuli affect ourselves, but not only that, a deep familiarity with our own cognitive and somatic processes. We orient ourselves to the outside world, but still have a constant internal conversation. We're tweeners, in a large sense. We're in agreement because we all recognize these things. Just because it doesn't represent your reality doesn't mean our perspective is wrong or skewed. Just different.

    And if I sound arrogant, I don't apologize. I'm being 100% honest here, and feel I would be doing you a disservice by pulling punches. I wouldn't want you to if our positions were switched.
    Self-aware, to me, also implies, in addition to understanding how external stimuli affects us and how our own thinking and feeling processes work, that we understand in turn how our thinking and behavior affects our external stimuli. Everyone has an internal conversation and some people, certainly, are more insightful about themselves than others. At the same time, declaring an entire type of people as necessarily less or more self-aware than others seems to be less rooted in reality and more an attempt at yet another round of self-congratulation (which I will grant you ENTPs are particularly good at - why would others disagree, who doesn't like to hear pleasant things that apply to them).

  9. #519
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    There is always something to learn and change and grow - that knowledge is in our very nature. And because I know that, doesn't that make me aware of myself - even if I don't wish to change my behavior? Just because I have behaviors that you don't like doesn't mean that I'm not aware of it or that they are flaws.

    The thing is that flaws are highly subjective. And what ENFPs don't like about me, INTPs might. So I ask myself if I should I pull more Fe to be more palatable to everyone, or just be myself and let chips fall where they may? Because I can't be all things to all people, I tend to choose the latter. I just can't be bothered with everyone else's opinion of me, unless I intend to make that person a focal point in my life. In which case, I would hope that we would both adjust for each other as the need arises.

    I guess we have different opinions on what self awareness is? You associate it with humility whereas I associate it with acceptance.
    Yes, flaws are highly subjective. Yet, to consider all personal quirks as okay and to be accepted for what they are seems to be strange at my end and may really reflect a difference in perspective here. I am constantly looking for self-improvement - assumption that there are things that need improvement and that self awareness comes with recognizing flaws. This does not imply that I have to agree with everyone who decides they know what my flaws are. I'm sure we all have agency in that regard.

    Yes, in a sense, self awareness does imply humility. In the sense that it implies that I acknowledge I have some flaws and that changing some of them may benefit me and my interactions with people. It's hard to recognize someone as self-aware who only recognizes their strengths. If the flaws are really recognized then, in my opinion, this recognition would lead to behavior alteration. If it doesn't it's not really recognizing it as a flaw - more as a quirk that some people enjoy and others don't. Isn't this a reflection of the level of self-awareness?

    I'm actually thinking of my own example for this one. I saw some things that don't benefit me as quirks until recently. The more I reflect on them, the more I see them as being harmful to my own interpersonal relationships in the long run. Sure, I could easily find just as many people who would consider them quirks and likable ones at that (the majority of my well-meaning friends express this continuously and enable me in that sense). At the end of the day, I know I will benefit from changing my behavior and am thankful for the person who led me down this path of self-examination. I just wouldn't assume a great level of self-awareness even now because I'm sure there are things I'm missing, as always.

  10. #520
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    <--- past his bedtime, and it shows
    Good night!

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