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  1. #501
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I'm right there with ya, buddy!
    There's nothing as liberating/empowering as realising we're the only ones setting our own limits.
    Most people hear that, and undestand it. Most people can write 3 thesis about it and use fancy formulas they stole or and adapted.

    But there's a multiverse between understanding something and getting it like you invented it.
    That's the main difference between the creator of a doctrine and the followers of the doctrine.

    One day I simply realised, the freedom one can have when everybody around him/her spend their lives with imaginary fairy talish handbrakes on.

    k, i'm really leaving now : P
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  2. #502
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Suffering might not be the right characterization, as pain is something to be worked through. A constant frustration and annoyance at the things you have to put up with from others, on the other hand, does tend to stick with me.
    This is pretty arrogant as I'm sure the 'putting up' happens at both ends. Give people credit for putting up with you, as much as you put up with them. If it's that much of an effort, find different people who need less 'putting up' with.

    We like people. We enjoy being around people. We're told all our lives to "be ourselves", and see others enjoying each other's company nearly effortlessly. We want to have a ton of interesting friends, and learn something new from them every day.

    We've also been constantly told that our impulsivity is a huge problem, and that we're so bright, but if only we'd just apply ourselves (a completely alien concept). When not matching up to someone's completely arbitrary standard, we're told that we're just not trying hard enough (like you can scale the level of effort?). Our education system is only conducive to our learning style at very rare moments (where we pull out all stops), and the rest of the time, we're stuck with dull memorization of uninteresting subjects that weren't explained well to us at all (math as a process? really?).

    We're confused to learn early on that our love of learning and talking about what we've learned are not shared by many people early on, and then conflicted further when we find out it's not very socially acceptable - this conflict lasts our entire lives in certain environments. Our great ideas are seen as strange and random by people who never comprehend that we've skipped a few steps in our heads, or intuitively noticed a connection that might not be immediately apparent.
    Fair enough and a complaint you will find across types, particularly intuitives and even more so ENPs in general. Your 'great' ideas....hmmmm

    We discuss, debate and challenge in order to learn, and are horribly confused when people take things seriously. Emotional reactions to everything completely flabbergast us, and we can't help but thinking that these reactions tend to be horribly selfish, as we retreat when emotional so as to not bother anyone with it. We're always the jerks if not constantly monitoring emotional states, and for a long time, the falseness of social conventions completely disgusts us, even as we comply with reservations. People love to question our decisions, seem to want to knock us down a peg, and grow resentful when it's proven correct, because 90% of the time it is correct.
    I think the debating is an admirable quality and a fine process for learning. There is sometimes a lack of respect for people who don't follow the same learning process yet most ENTPs I know are aware of this and are careful who they engage in this manner. Ironically, you express surprise that people question your decisions and opinions - seems strange for someone who is so open to debate. Why aren't you open to people questioning your views and decisions? The conviction that you are right 90% of the time is pure over confidence I'm afraid.


    We get to know people. We acquire large groups of friends. We don't necessarily hang out with a good percentage of those, since they're just the same as the rest of humanity in a different wrapper, and they've got nothing to offer us in the way of novelty, intrigue or stimulation. This is seen as cold and uncaring, as we're just supposed to enjoy others' company, even as their dullness rots at our brains. Our best friends, we're loyal to until the end. We go out of our way to find cool gifts and make meaningful gestures to demonstrate how we feel, and yet get in crap for forgetting holidays and birthdays. And yet, we still feel alienated, as it's so rare for us to experience the connection that seems immediately apparent between others.
    It's neat to get an insight into an ENTP mind. As an ENFP, I often feel similarly - the real connections are rare and hence so valuable. I think there are some important things you hint at here. You (I use that broadly for ENTPs and not you alone since I don't know you) speak of acquiring a large group of friends and yet feeling alienated. Is it all due to other people simply being dull. Isn't everyone "dull" or predictable in some ways, even ENTPs as you get to know them better? Once the novelty factor wears off, we have to work to establish deeper connections with people and if that is done, they will continue to surprise us. The alienation could be due to a lack of effort in doing this. I say this as an ENP who has similar attraction to new and shiny things and a sense of being different and misunderstood quite a bit of the time. This may warrant some examination.


    In love with logic and rationale, and employing its use whenever possible to understand the world, people are inclined to think of us as heartless know-it-alls, moreso than the introverted types, as we actually try to interact with others and exercise our talents out of the sheer joy of it. Sometimes, they pick up on that joy and join the party - while we wonder if they're being sincere or laying it on thick. Relationships are a never ending sequence of meeting someone, and panicking as others start clinging so damn quickly. We don't even know these people yet, and the ones we do know and love have something against our enjoying each other physically, even though it brings such pleasure and expresses our feelings so well.
    You may not understand why the physical aspect without you being able to offer the emotional connection/commitment people desire does not express THEIR feelings well, just yours. You've hit the problem on its head in a sense here with interpersonal stuff - you have a vision of how things will be best for everyone even in a friends with benefits situation without acknowledgment or understanding of why the other person may disagree. This is what a know-it-all would do -- as ENTPs are often frustrated with NFs for doing. NFs assume NTs have certain feelings emotions and ascribe all sorts of scenarios that may have led to the emotional barrenness they view in NTs. Annoying I'm sure. At the same time, NTs deciding they know best for all parties involved without even trying to understand why other people may disagree and not just dismissing views other than their own as "inane social conventions" is equally annoying at the other end.

    Still though, none of this really gets us down, because we truly think tomorrow will be better, because we have control of the future. No matter what, if we follow our noses, we'll either find our passion, or receive the recognition (no, understanding is the better word) that we've been looking for our entire life, or make that impact that will truly indicate that our time on Earth was worthwhile. People say we're selfish; perhaps, the problem is that we're particularly self-aware
    It's wonderful to see ENTP resilience and strength - I think it's their most attractive quality, particularly to NFs who question ourselves so much and lack that self-confidence sometimes (or perhaps, I'll say so cheekily, choose to carry it in a smaller and more balanced measure). I would, for example, hesitate in declaring myself self-aware. That's a surefire way of inviting criticism for overestimation of one's own insight (a little humility goes a long way) No one is THAT self-aware. You all have the gift of detachment and being able to the situation rationally. That is a gift of very particular insight but does that equal self-awareness. If the ENTPs in this thread are the only ones agreeing, it may be time to pause and question the self-awareness. We could all use some help in that area, I doubt ENTPs are exceptions to that rule.

  3. #503
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Admit it, you've caught yourself annoyed with someone because they have such a "peasant mindset" about things. Embrace the elitism!
    Nah, what I do get annoyed by are logical inconsistencies, and willful ignorance (i.e., unwillingless to be open, to learn, to discuss, and willingness to sit in their righteous judgement)..but never really 'peasant mindset'.

    I have one friend who is quite 'dull', she once said that a guy she's dating has a Nobel prize in dentistry........but, I find her interesting because of how literal she interprets the world, and she's got such a innocent outlook that it's never-endingly fascinating quietly prodding her to explain.

    My best childhood friend is sharp as a tack, very street-smarts, xSxx, graduated high school and then entered the work/labour force, she doesn't have much 'book smart'....she recently asked me, in a giggled whisper: Hey, do you believe that dinosaurs were real?

    I took it in stride (and was more than a little intrigued by such a thought as hers) and replied: Well, there's nothing to believe, evidence points it so.

    Her response: How do you know the evidence wasn't planted there?

    (no she's not a Christian, nor a fundie...just uninformed in that particular matter)

    Anyway, I had the most interesting time, trying to explain why dinosaurs are real, and basically give a crash course on evolution in laymen's term, using concrete examples, analogy. I loved it actually. And, her for unknowingly providing me with that opportunity.

    I have my other 3 best friends, all met in first year of undergrad Uni, some other close friends, my bf, my parents, if I want to get into 'high-brow' book-smart 'intellectual' discussion...they range from PhD graduates (anthropologist, to Physicist, clinical psychologist) to engineers, to lawyer, to doctors, to Pharmacist, but, truly, I see almost any viewpoint as a possibility for intrigue.

    I am also friends with a person with an intellectual disability (he has Down Syndrome, we met because we always took the same bus route), another who went as far as Grade 8. And call them 'chilling buddies' and do discuss ideas with them.

    I.e., all of the above...just that I allot more or less time depending on how far they can push an idea..and often times, I take it upon myself that I wasn't able to enable the idea to be presented in such a manner to be pushed far by them. I.e., my part to learn, as well as theirs.

  4. #504
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlahBlahNounBlah View Post
    Someone became quite angry with me recently, yelling and screaming about how:

    - I don't take anything seriously.

    - I don't take myself seriously.

    - Everyone on the planet should be issued a warning about becoming involved with me.

    - I don't even care enough to get angry at this person for saying these things to me.


    My reaction---> :-|




    Then the person told me my parents were to blame for my being the way I am:

    My reaction--->



    The person apologized for blaming my parents. Then I went back to:

    :-|



    And made a decision to give this person time to chill out before hanging out with them again.



    I'm not sure what any of this means.
    Sorry dude. Those are all pretty ride things to say to someone, particularly blaming your parents. Did you see any truth in what the person said or was it all completely unwarranted? If so, I imagine you are ignoring them successfully.

  5. #505
    ..... Intricate Mystic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Actually, sometimes, for the hell of it, I will make it my 'mission' to find the ONE quirk about a person that seems so blatantly blah.
    Interesting! I take an opposite approach- I always look for aspects of people that seem to be abnormal or unusual. I just can't maintain any interest in people who are completely normal. For me, normal= boring.

  6. #506
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Intricate Mystic View Post
    Interesting! I take an opposite approach- I always look for aspects of people that seem to be abnormal or unusual. I just can't maintain any interest in people who are completely normal. For me, normal= boring.
    Maybe I worded it too convolutedly, but it seems we both do the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Actually, sometimes, for the hell of it, I will make it my 'mission' to find the ONE quirk about a person that seems so blatanly blah.

    I.e., I look for something unusual (a quirk, at least one) in a person that superficially appears, on the surface (seems), to be blatantly 'normal' (blah).

  7. #507
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    If the ENTPs in this thread are the only ones agreeing, it may be time to pause and question the self-awareness. We could all use some help in that area, I doubt ENTPs are exceptions to that rule.
    I don't understand what you mean by this. Hypothetically, if we all agreed to feel the same way, then all of us are not self-aware? What makes you so aware of ourselves better than we are? I'm being serious, not snarky - promise.

  8. #508
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    We discuss, debate and challenge in order to learn, and are horribly confused when people take things seriously. Emotional reactions to everything completely flabbergast us, and we can't help but thinking that these reactions tend to be horribly selfish, as we retreat when emotional so as to not bother anyone with it. We're always the jerks if not constantly monitoring emotional states, and for a long time, the falseness of social conventions completely disgusts us, even as we comply with reservations. People love to question our decisions, seem to want to knock us down a peg, and grow resentful when it's proven correct, because 90% of the time it is correct.
    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    I think the debating is an admirable quality and a fine process for learning. There is sometimes a lack of respect for people who don't follow the same learning process yet most ENTPs I know are aware of this and are careful who they engage in this manner. Ironically, you express surprise that people question your decisions and opinions - seems strange for someone who is so open to debate. Why aren't you open to people questioning your views and decisions? The conviction that you are right 90% of the time is pure over confidence I'm afraid.
    I think, when I read that passage of onemore's, and agreed, I made a clear distinction between debating (views) and decisions. I don't see these two things as the same. I do want people to challenge my views (i.e., through debate), but, my decisions (made a stand towards a certain action), esp. when the other comes from a place of patronizing, or, when not asked for their opinion on my decisions, are often times (exception: those close enough to me in that way), off-limits. I like to have the results speak for themselves. And, THEN...we can talk.

  9. #509
    Senior Member BlahBlahNounBlah's Avatar
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    Speaking for myself only:

    - Even when I think I am right, I am aware of the possibility of being wrong. I do not ever forget this.

    - I do not dwell on my successes or failures because I don't think they truly matter. I also don't think others' successes are any more or less worth dwelling on. Isn't this the essence of humility?

    - I do not take pride in apathy. I have feelings, but I think that the expression of certain feelings is selfish and indulgent. When I've let my feelings penetrate someone else's existence in a negative way, I've tried to learn from this to prevent it happening in the future. When I'm happy, everyone I'm around knows it. And I feel this every day.

    - I do not like boring people. I think the society needs them, but why should I pretend to have a personal interest in them when I don't? But my definition of interesting includes an enormous variety of people. I'm also aware that my definition of interesting is subjective.


    Just seemed like a thing to say.

  10. #510
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlahBlahNounBlah View Post
    Speaking for myself only:

    - Even when I think I am right, I am aware of the possibility of being wrong. I do not ever forget this.

    - I do not dwell on my successes or failures because I don't think they truly matter. I also don't think others' successes are any more or less worth dwelling on. Isn't this the essence of humility?

    - I do not take pride in apathy. I have feelings, but I think that the expression of certain feelings is selfish and indulgent. When I've let my feelings penetrate someone else's existence in a negative way, I try to learn from this and prevent it happening in the future. When I'm happy, everyone I'm around knows it. And I feel this every day.

    - I do not like boring people. I think the society needs them, but why should I pretend that I have a personal interest in them when I don't? But my definition of interesting includes an enormous variety of people. I'm also aware that my definition of interesting is subjective.


    Just seemed like a thing to say.
    Holy crap +100000

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