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  1. #431
    You're fired. Lol. Antimony's Avatar
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    God. I hate ENTP's.

    Insensitive assholes, never meeting my emotional needs, thinking they are better than everyone else. I wish they would all just go the fuck away, I hate them so much. They don't care about anything, and think they know everything.

    Who would ever make such horrible people?!?!?!?
    Excuse me, but does this smell like chloroform to you?

    Always reserve the right to become smarter at a future point in time, for only a fool limits themselves to all they knew in the past. -Alex

  2. #432
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    So.. that's how you treat your friends.
    Man, enfps are cold
    '
    Yes, we can be. Sorry. Friends? I'll take you for a spin in my car. It goes zoom zoom zoom'....

    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    I mean, that the enfps I know, are of course just as able to be rational as anybody else, but that the mental categories they use, relatively speaking, are way more 'flavored' than the more neutral categories I for example use. Which in my opinion, give them way more blindspots as far as 'stepping away from the situation' goes. There are always underlying values, positive and negative experience and so on lying just behind the surface.

    Now that doesn't have to apply to you, I don't know you, I'm talking from my experience with enfps and especially infps.
    You cannot hurt someone's feelings if s-he doesn't have a preference emotionally speaking between solution A and B. In the case of infps for example, this is not only untrue, but quite the exact opposite situation.
    And while the entp, going for the large and complete picture is trying to encompass a few aspects, he or she is just BOUND to touch some sensible fiber and spend more energy trying not to have people get all emotional while still driving the actual point home.
    I think this is true, NFs do attach more emotions to choices earlier than you might and this makes it harder to step away (more blindspots). I completely agree and own this part. This is exactly why NT help would be useful were they willing to provide it. This is what I am trying to point out -- we could help each other out with our relative strengths. If the NT wasn't put off simply by the idea of people going all emotional, the interaction/relationship may be better off in the long run with input from both sides instead of what I see as usual reactions. The NF's emo spiel instead of real engagement the NT's retreating, logical analysis and behavior change all in isolation from the NF. Makes sense?

  3. #433

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    its funny though i keep thinking of what could possibly piss me off about other types and I just cant find anything

  4. #434
    You're fired. Lol. Antimony's Avatar
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    Hmm the only people that piss me off are the ones who are too conventional, or are too normal.

    I just enlist them in taking over the world. Or force. Whatever comes first.
    Excuse me, but does this smell like chloroform to you?

    Always reserve the right to become smarter at a future point in time, for only a fool limits themselves to all they knew in the past. -Alex

  5. #435
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    Q - Thanks for taking the time to write this down. I really appreciate it. Don't give me "the look" - you know you were included.

    I think there may be miscommunication here which I am trying to understand. How do you communicate these warnings? Is it straightforward, in saying it in so many words, " hey don't do that because..." or is it just not responding to the words/behavior? I'm trying to understand why the signs wouldn't be heeded. For me, sometimes the warning signs are so subtle that I miss them altogether or misinterpret them. I need things spelled out a little clearly so I'm wondering if it's a communication problem in that sense. Just thinking aloud to understand my own interactions with ENTPs better.
    A lot of time, there won't be too many signals - you're similar enough to us where we can't figure out for the life of us why you don't understand that you're pissing us off right now. For example, an ENFP friend of mine is staying with me. We get along well enough most of the time, but there's certain differences that can arise, and difficulties therein. Whenever I make a statement, he'll often contradict me. It's not the contradiction that's the problem, it's the assumption that I hadn't factored that into my statement.

    Now, that may make you laugh, knowing how argumentative ENTPS tend to be, but there is a shade of difference contained within. Whenever I try to correct others (which I do realize annoys others, and I'm actively trying to compensate for), it's usually about a factual issue, or a better application of a shade of meaning. When he "corrects" me, it's usually implying that it was foolish to not consider that, when of course, I did. For example, in a conversation about a house party - I made the point that you didn't want to get a noise complaint. He immediately shot back that "it's only a $50 ticket, you just get a collection at that point". There's nothing contradictory about both viewpoints - but the implication is that I'm stupid for being concerned with that, which as you know, is fighting words for an ENTP.

    I do not go through logic in my head in a procedural fashion, which you are sure enough to understand. The difference is where you read people, I read ideas.

    Warnings? I'd say the biggest ones are: 1. Locked eye contact on something other than the speaker 2. Short, terse statements 3. Letting statements go without response, or a simple nod 4. Slowing down and seemingly talking down to you - which is really more a reaction to the need to procedurally follow through the intuitive logic that brought a person to their statement. 5. Somewhat contradictorily, if an ENTP starts talking really fast and making complete sense over the course of a very long, complicated sentence containing a long line of logic, watch the hell out - they're pissed and looking for a fight ( I think this is a general NT thing)

    Thanks that did help. I mulled over this today in trying to understand why I didn't agree. I'll try and articulate as best as I can. I think most of us mature, even slightly self aware individuals want to own our part. Most of us are eager to understand our parts and take care of things early because we all care about our relationships. This seems like a fair starting place for most people, in my opinion.

    Considering most people start out here, when they don't *get it*, it isn't necessary that they're not using their own heart and brain to figure it out but that they really do have a different view of the situation. Every situation is open to multiple interpretations, isn't it? At my end, I see NTs have a gift in a way that NFs do not. You can detach from the emotions much faster than I can to be able to look at the situation and see multiple sides to it. I can do this eventually but the detachment really takes some time. I'm quite keen though to see things from an NT perspective because I value it. In not sharing it, it seems like an unwillingness to work together to resolve the conflict. I understand the independence of thought and the idea of doing your own work. There's no substitute for it. At the same time, a lot of work I've done was done in time because an honest friend was able to point out my part earlier than I may have been able to do so myself. Even if I wasn't receptive at the time, I did listen and as I absorbed it, I learned from it and saw things from a completely different perspective - one I wasn't even vaguely aware of until it was presented to me. I hoard these rare people because of that rare gift and their generosity in sharing it.
    At the point of conflict, it's not just an intellectual debate - it's an actual fight, if you will. Many of us are generally pissed at that point, and don't want to continue the conflict because it's just bringing negative emotions. Of course, if the other person has to go down, they had it coming to them - but those people are pretty rare. For me personally, I don't like keeping it up because I know I'm going to find something really deep and harsh to call them out on, make fun of, and generally ruin their night. I'll go to the nuclear option because I want the situation over and done. Then, I'll spend the next two weeks feeling horrible over it, going through that internal reconciliation process.

    From the opposite side of the conflict, I'll present my view of ENTPs doing their owning in isolation. It's admirable because it's so sincere and so insightful where they are concerned. I really appreciate it. At the same time, they've often missed pieces that could have helped us both and the situation were they willing to engage in a conversation about it. The processing quietly is great but I don't just want to be presented with the results. I wish it was possible to understand the process by which you got there and see a willingness to talk about it. To me it comes across as doing a complete analysis of the situation which involves me without engaging me. Just seems strange. I wonder if it's possible to conduct a complete analysis without complete information from the other person. Do ENTPs not want the full picture?
    It's a puzzle. We're not procedural creatures by nature. It's genuinely going to be coming up with ideas to understand what happened until one can be plugged into the internal logic system and a satisfactory result occurs. At this point, we don't want our logic to be dissected - it's wrapped up in too much emotion. After a while, that's fine, but at the moment... you might as well just tell us we're worthless people. And then the H-bombs come out.

    Remember, we're trying to understand. Understanding is an inherently subjective process. Not only that, but we realize that about other people as well. Sorry to sound insensitive, but sometimes, the other person's perspective will be nothing but noise, set up to protect their emotional state and maintain their sense of superiority in the situation. It's an alien concept that others are not infomining for the sake of establishing their superior position, and need that information to finish their process. We're protecting ourselves against that noise so as to not have the other get over on us. Yes, the Si is talking at this moment - usually the first one to kick in after the stressor leaves.

    At the end of the day, it seems like a basic difference in how we view conflict resolution. ENTPs see it as a case of personal responsibility involving individual analysis and behavior change which can benefit both sides even if both do not have complete information. I see it as group work which is more painful but everyone benefits from having complete information and coming to an understanding of expectations at either end.

    My head resembles the inside of spaghetti squash today so I hope this made sense.
    I agree with this in a sense; however, I chafe a bit at the use of "personal responsibility" (which mostly comes from its use as a political codeword). I'd say the process is more like "get things figured out for yourself, come up with a basic model of what's going on, go talk to that person and find out information to improve your model of that situation and give them information on your side, come to a clearer picture of the incident, understand where you screwed up, figure out what to do next time"

    Of course, this all gets bogged down if the Fe function is immature.

  6. #436
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    Don't give me "the look" - you know you were included.


    I think there may be miscommunication here which I am trying to understand. How do you communicate these warnings? Is it straightforward, in saying it in so many words, " hey don't do that because..." or is it just not responding to the words/behavior?
    Yes, very clearly, such that when it becomes Scenario 2 (an all-out conflict) the other party will acknowledge, 'oh yeah, you did mention to me a few times not to do X'.


    E.g., my xSxx best friend - she assumes my motives/intention and builds a whole scenario out of that. My exact words to her: Please do not assume this is what I meant, ask me and I'll elaborate, but, when you assume and make a commentary based primarily on your assumption it does three things. One, blows the issue to even bigger, and less manageable heights. Two, makes me feel disrespected because my literal words were not enough to convince you, and you believed otherwise, so I feel helpless because other than words, I don't know how else to state my case. And, three, it makes me irritated that I have to defend myself against something I didn't do/think. Do you think any of those feelings of mine are wrong to have, given your assumptions?

    Her: no.

    Yet, she does it again.

    I'm trying to understand why the signs wouldn't be heeded. For me, sometimes the warning signs are so subtle that I miss them altogether or misinterpret them. I need things spelled out a little clearly so I'm wondering if it's a communication problem in that sense. Just thinking aloud to understand my own interactions with ENTPs better.
    I really think it's because of the literal way I say things that it seems almost audacious that it's *that* simple, and thus, there must be some manipulation. I'll give an example of a conversation between a poster (Shimmy) and myself.

    (How to seduce an INTP)

    Originally Posted by seeker22
    She on the other hand withdraws and says she is confused because she truly did not believe I even liked her and SHE CANNOT BELIEVE THAT I LIKE HER.

    Ladies, gentleman - WTF???!
    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Just ask her point blank, how does one relay to you/convince you that they like you? What does it take for you to believe that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Shimmy View Post
    Too manipulative and pushy. Ask her why she cannot like you instead, then point out you are different from that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    I'd agree with how that can be seen as pushy, but, why manipulative? It seems like the obvious thing...dude is confused (WTF?) by how the INTP reached the conclusion, so he asks her to clarify. It can't get any more blunt and straight-out, cards on the table, than that....how is that manipulative?
    Quote Originally Posted by Shimmy View Post
    It's steering her thought pattern and emotions too much in one direction. She will feel guilty for not returning the feelings.

    ***

    Now, I can understand, intellectually what Shimmy was getting at with his last comment, but, I don't *get* it. To me, it was stating the obvious, what the other does with such blatant obviousness, I cannot always fully understand my part/role in it, nor do I think it's fair for me to have that responsibility/consideration?

    Another example, I've said to a guy, point blank, and exact words, "I like you, do you like me? If not, can you tell me why not?"

    He was utterly flabbergasted, which made me flabbergasted. I mean, I was being quite literal. Well, it turns out he didn't take me seriously and thought I had some "other" agenda, or was joking/pulling his leg.

    So, my conclusion? The casual directness with which I address something, maybe because it's not the norm, gets re-interpreted and translated 10 ways to Sunday by the other, until what I actually said is just a hazy mess that's overlooked?

    This is very wise and my strategy of choice as well. Often gets ignored by other NFs due to lack of associated heat. Although, heat and straightforwardness are not to be confused. If I say things directly while there is little emotion attached to them, I too consider myself ahead of the game versus ending up having to express what are now full blown conflict associated emotions (yuck).
    THIS. EXACTLY THIS. It's quite frustrating to me when I still get pulled into the conflict when my original intention was to face it head-on, specifically to AVOID such things that end up happening anyways because the other responds, "Well, you have to force me to get it, make it more clear."

    WTF!! I was as clear as I could be, taking pains to avoid mincing words...it's not my fault that you assumed it wasn't 'real'!! People are confusing.

    Considering most people start out here, when they don't *get it*, it isn't necessary that they're not using their own heart and brain to figure it out but that they really do have a different view of the situation. Every situation is open to multiple interpretations, isn't it?
    Yup, and, I try to see how they derived at the conclusion that they did, their different interpretations, and I dunno about your other ENTP friends, but, I do discuss those possible interpretations with them as well, and, add why there's holes in such interpretations given what happened/what I/we said.

    When I leave, it is when there's defensiveness about my attempt to do multiple interpretations of the scenario (maybe, the way I come at it - they take it personally, when I'm just testing out different thoughts, and they feel it's a challenge/debate? I can be quite "assertively" focused when taking apart ideas/thoughts), and they start saying why X interpretation isn't *exactly* the case. Well, how about you just telling me what your exact interpretation was, rather than ridiculously and ineffectively clinging to 'defensive mode' and pointing out why *one*, *two*, *three* of my hypothesized interpretations aren't exactly it. You know, save time and headache?

    Hence, I just THEN (and only then) chuck the whole shit out....and stay within my own contained realm. My part in it, and my ammends. They can deal with theirs. Good riddance! (it hurts my head, when people convolute shyte without no real thought challenge achieved)


    At the same time, a lot of work I've done was done in time because an honest friend was able to point out my part earlier than I may have been able to do so myself.
    Only if I get the vibe that the other is willing and open to listen. Otherwise, it's a waste of my time and energy to invest when they are not receptive.

    Even if I wasn't receptive at the time, I did listen and as I absorbed it, I learned from it and saw things from a completely different perspective - one I wasn't even vaguely aware of until it was presented to me. I hoard these rare people because of that rare gift and their generosity in sharing it.
    I guess I should consider this, that even if the other isn't receptive, it doesn't mean it's not going through....for that, I'd need patience with emotions. Something that I know I must cultivate. It just doesn't logically makes sense of why I would put in the effort when the other isn't yet, ready nor willingly to engage? I don't want to force anyone's hand, draw them out beyond their 'comfort zone'...it seems manipulative and forced. And, not very appealing to me. Can you make a case for this, as I know I get told by others to have patience with them (esp. when they are being 'emotionally stubborn', etc)...because I tend to very quickly, and without much fanfare, say, "Fuck that shit," and walk away.

    From the opposite side of the conflict, I'll present my view of ENTPs doing their owning in isolation. It's admirable because it's so sincere and so insightful where they are concerned. I really appreciate it. At the same time, they've often missed pieces that could have helped us both and the situation were they willing to engage in a conversation about it.

    I'd be jumping with joy if the other pointed out the pieces...evolution of conflict, rather than stagnation and going round and round in defensive, emotionally overloaded circles. However, I've seen most don't as much as they are about proving my *points* wrong, when they could/should also invest that time in proving THEIR pov right.


    The processing quietly is great but I don't just want to be presented with the results. I wish it was possible to understand the process by which you got there and see a willingness to talk about it. To me it comes across as doing a complete analysis of the situation which involves me without engaging me. Just seems strange. I wonder if it's possible to conduct a complete analysis without complete information from the other person. Do ENTPs not want the full picture?
    Yes, but, only if I get the vibe that I'm not going against a losing battle...i.e., the other is willing to aid me in developing the full picture efficiently, without any emotional bullshit (I think, one of my faults is that, I often see emotional overload for a 'given situation', which obviously is through my own measuring scale, as trying to manipulate me)

    * I have said to an ex-friend in an argument, "Don't think that just because you cry harder, it makes your point any more valid."

    I got called an evil heartless bitch for that and a glass (filled with coke, no less, I tell you) thrown at me.

    * My INFP mom and I got into an argument once while shopping for gardening plants, and, me trying to reason with her just made her more and more emotional, so, I suggested we just go home as this was going nowhere fast. She told me that she refuses to go back with me in the car. I tried, once, twice, thrice, and every time, she vehemently said, she WILL NOT GO BACK WITH ME. So...I left (her there). I got an earful from my ESTJ dad, when my defense was, "I did what she TOLD ME." To where, a few years later, and my dad still remembers. Such that recently when my dad was going away for a month, leaving me and my mom to manage for ourselves while he's away, one of his instructions to me was, "Be nice to your mom and don't leave her stranded anywhere, no matter what she says." Oie vey.

    I don't understand why people say things they don't mean or act to emotionally exacerbate a situation. And, if they say it to manipulate me (aka, my pov, as I see it), that's the fastest way to get me to desert the situation (and them).
    At the end of the day, it seems like a basic difference in how we view conflict resolution. ENTPs see it as a case of personal responsibility involving individual analysis and behavior change which can benefit both sides even if both do not have complete information. I see it as group work which is more painful but everyone benefits from having complete information and coming to an understanding of expectations at either end.
    I can see that, and I'd actually say that I see it as group work first too, and, when group work doesn't seem to be a receptive medium, I rather just tie my end up and let the other deal with theirs how they see fit. I guess it comes down to patience and the 'putting up with emotional stuff' (my word - stuff=bullshit )..I have a lot less threshold for it, than you do. Any suggestions on how to convince my brain to have such patience?

    My head resembles the inside of spaghetti squash today so I hope this made sense.

    Thanks for actually being the first (if I can recall) in this great big thread to address a concern with the real aim to understand. It's easy for us ENTPs to take the ribbing as jokes in stride, and this entp, at least, appeciates being (sometimes) cornered in seriousness when it comes to the realm of introspection. <- emotional bullshit stuff quota of the day, savour the flavour

  7. #437
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antimony View Post
    God. I hate ENTP's.

    Insensitive assholes, never meeting my emotional needs, thinking they are better than everyone else. I wish they would all just go the fuck away, I hate them so much. They don't care about anything, and think they know everything.

    Who would ever make such horrible people?!?!?!?
    Bunnies are much much cuter, albeit not nearly as clever. Certainly the god that made bunnies did not make entps.

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    It's not the contradiction that's the problem, it's the assumption that I hadn't factored that into my statement.

    but the implication is that I'm stupid for being concerned with that, which as you know, is fighting words for an ENTP..
    Stupid for being concerned or stupid for not thinking about it as part of your logical progression in the first place? Are they bugging you by insulting your logic?

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    4. Slowing down and seemingly talking down to you - which is really more a reaction to the need to procedurally follow through the intuitive logic that brought a person to their statement. 5. Somewhat contradictorily, if an ENTP starts talking really fast and making complete sense over the course of a very long, complicated sentence containing a long line of logic, watch the hell out - they're pissed and looking for a fight .
    Can you expound on this-number 4 especially? Also what is going on when an entp is talking, but is taking short breaks in the middle of the convo? 2 seconds breaks-like trying to find the right words...

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Sorry to sound insensitive, but sometimes, the other person's perspective will be nothing but noise, set up to protect their emotional state and maintain their sense of superiority in the situation.
    .
    Is this superiority in the sense of winning the argument? If they are inherently emo/value based isnt their emo state an integral part of the argument potentially? If so it seems as thought the noise would be essential to get the full picture...?

  8. #438
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    this thread is pointless...everyone knows entps are like...AWESOME

  9. #439
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    bunnies are better.

  10. #440
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    only with red eyes and black fur

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