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  1. #401
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Sooo, do we have to make up things against ourselves or what?

    "Them ENTPs won't lie to a friend to make them feel better about themselves but would rather say the truth to help them grow. I REFUSE TO GROW INTO A BETTER PERSON FOR MY OWN SAKE "
    "they only befriend geniunely interesting people, I HATE THEM"
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  2. #402
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    It's because I consider most problems to be my fault, since I should have known better.
    I do too, often to a fault. I've actually repeated this to myself several times in the past few weeks, "i should have known better".

    I also know that I am responsible for my own growth, so when there is a conflict, I try to think of where I went wrong and what I could have done differently. The other adult should do the same - I'm not their mother.
    This where you and I disagree. Actually, the making things okay without letting you recognize your part and helping you see your part strikes me as more motherly than otherwise. I don't think anyone is that self aware to take away a complete understanding of the situation that broke down without input from the other person. I find that hard to believe at either end. Even with my own acknowledgment of the role, I would have missed stuff and the other person's perspective, as I often learn on this site can really help me see things better, more clearly. It's not about mothering, it is very much about having an open adult conversation.

    EDIT: Like Ent said above, it's nice when the other party learns the value of personal responsibility and contributes to the dialogue.
    Absolutely. Both parties have to be amenable to the dialogue. This implies being okay with saying, I messed up but I think this is what you did that led me there.

  3. #403
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Most people simply assume, to protect their own ego that the other party is at fault to an extent, wether or not its the case. Take the classic example of the ex who suddently has a billion cons, and every friend who knew him or her suddently get all 'yes she/he didn't deserve you balbalbal'. That's just, childish.

    The fact is, that you cannot change other people, but you can change yourself, so its the best solution for personal growth and not an attempt to beat ourselves up. Now if the other party is also at fault and just takes my saying that i'm at fault as a get out of jail free card its their own problem. Ofc, if i find them to be dishonest in those matters, they might fall down on my respectometer, but i'm not going to try to change them, they're adults and should be able to decide what they want to become.
    This is exactly what I am talking about NOT doing -- I don't want to assume it's always the other person's fault. That is never the case. Breakdowns always involve two people. It is childish. The opposite seems strange too, it was all my fault when it is clear to both people that it wasn't.

    I agree - you can't change the other person but relationships of any kind are made stronger by dialogue. When you deny the other person the insights you have into what happened, you deny them that piece of growth you could have helped them with. They make the changes but it's okay to have people who care for us highlight some things we may be blind to at the time. Acting on it or not is the person's prerogative.

  4. #404
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galusha View Post
    Hateable: ENTPs ALWAYS LOSE THEIR PANTS! (oh, wait...)

    Okay... their clothing spontaneously changes color based on their mood, and they won't tell me how.


    Te/Ni is not a lock, it is the way of the world. (It is also making me want to point out that I know that's not true. Damn.)

    ENTP (actually most Ne): telling you something you already know, and being surprised that you've considered it before the official "hand of truth" has revealed it. Honestly, most of the time these tidbits are just not worth considering unless the crazy guy brings it up.
    Is it really that we're surprised that you knew it before we revealed it, or is it that we're surprised that you didn't factor that bit of information into your logic? Everything's interconnected, you know.


  5. #405
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Sooo, do we have to make up things against ourselves or what?

    "Them ENTPs won't lie to a friend to make them feel better about themselves but would rather say the truth to help them grow. I REFUSE TO GROW INTO A BETTER PERSON FOR MY OWN SAKE "
    "they only befriend geniunely interesting people, I HATE THEM"
    I guess that's why Ti has to be developed for personal growth - we aren't going to change until we have a conversation with ourselves explaining why we have to change.

    This is also why I think ENTPs (maybe NTs in general) tend to be non-religious; we understand that the voice in our head isn't some deity, but rather our own internal cognitive processes. Combined with the extraverted nature of the way we see the world, we've been having conversations with ourselves in a non-crazy (arguably) way our entire life, and the need for religion is less apparent.

  6. #406
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    This where you and I disagree. Actually, the making things okay without letting you recognize your part and helping you see your part strikes me as more motherly than otherwise. I don't think anyone is that self aware to take away a complete understanding of the situation that broke down without input from the other person. I find that hard to believe at either end. Even with my own acknowledgment of the role, I would have missed stuff and the other person's perspective, as I often learn on this site can really help me see things better, more clearly. It's not about mothering, it is very much about having an open adult conversation.
    To be fair, if someone asks me what I think they could have done differently, I will tell them. But not everyone wants to hear the truth, especially if emotions are running high after a fight already. And I disagree that even with both parties communicating, that the full answer will be known. It's impossible.

    But what I mean by "it's my own fault" - I don't mean that the argument was my fault, but that I took the bait and argued with someone who is clearly so emotional. I should have known better. Do you understand what I mean?

    And a lot of times, for my friends, it's more about just giving them a pass. Recognizing someone had a bad day and is acting out of turn... whatever. You can take it out on me if you want. But if that behavioral pattern continues, you better believe there will be a conversation about it.

  7. #407
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Yeah, there's this whole communication issue, especially with you Fi people. You guys have difficulties grasping inpersonnal analysis of interpersonal relationships as a working model used on everyday basis in entps. We just want to resolve a conflict, not argue about who has the moral upper hand. We're moral relativists damn it, doesnt apply !
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  8. #408
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    We just want to resolve a conflict, not argue about who has the moral upper hand.
    +100000

  9. #409
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    To be fair, if someone asks me what I think they could have done differently, I will tell them. But not everyone wants to hear the truth, especially if emotions are running high after a fight already. And I disagree that even with both parties communicating, that the full answer will be known. It's impossible.
    I think that's fair, both people have to be in a good place for the conversation. Sure, but I am interested in getting as close to the answer as possible and I'll hold that getting both perspectives will get me closer than just doing my own analysis.

    But what I mean by "it's my own fault" - I don't mean that the argument was my fault, but that I took the bait and argued with someone who is clearly so emotional. I should have known better. Do you understand what I mean?
    Yes, absolutely and I practice this myself - choosing who and more importantly, when someone can handle the honesty. I don't see argument as necessarily leading to emotional fighting, conflicts appear in every interaction and they don't always lead to arguments. The dissatisfaction at my end is almost an intellectual one, I didn't learn enough.

    And a lot of times, for my friends, it's more about just giving them a pass. Recognizing someone had a bad day and is acting out of turn... whatever. You can take it out on me if you want. But if that behavioral pattern continues, you better believe there will be a conversation about it.
    Glad to hear it. This is the kind of friend I would want who wouldn't just let me continue with behavior that was hurtful (even unintentionally) or otherwise harmful.

    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Yeah, there's this whole communication issue, especially with you Fi people. You guys have difficulties grasping inpersonnal analysis of interpersonal relationships as a working model used on everyday basis in entps. We just want to resolve a conflict, not argue about who has the moral upper hand. We're moral relativists damn it, doesnt apply !
    Did you mean impersonal? Actually, I don't think that's true at all. For Fi users too, it's not establishing a moral hierarchy (not sure how you got there) but about getting complete information and working on bettering self. We are very capable and probably do more impersonal analysis of interpersonal relationships than necessary (it's our specialty). It doesn't always involve emotions, at least our own. There is much intellectual interest there as well. Perhaps the difference is that you see resolving the conflict as the only goal and we see the future implications as important too - how can I avoid this event from repeating?

    Edit: Our starting point is one of the absolute importance of moral equality in our relationships and respecting individual approaches to them so the idea of moral upper hand seems out of place. It's not a question of right or wrong, it's a question of how to achieve a better outcome but allowing both parties access to the information gleaned. I recognize we both have good skills in the area - I just want to share my info for yours, you know?

  10. #410
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Has anyone said yet, I love my car, it doesnt ask me difficult questions ?
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

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