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  1. #31
    / nonsequitur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edel weiss View Post
    It's cultural. Some cultures believe that men should not have physical contact with any woman who is not their close relative/wife. Admittedly, they do tend to be misogynistic, but it has nothing to do with that man in particular - In his view, he was being respectful to the women present there.

    You can be a feminist and not be a bra-burner... In fact, bras can be very practical items, and would thus be feminist.
    He was visiting Australia in a professional context. He also did not speak directly to the woman whom he was introduced to - he spoke to the guy (my supervisor) who was introducing them. That spoke to me of lack-of-respect and lack of professionalism.

    Yeah, it's just a stereotype thing. It annoys me when people think of feminists as extremist lesbian vegans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    It's always dismaying to me to see women say things like "Of course I believe [X/Y/Z basic feminist ideas] but I don't consider myself a feminist." It seems as if a big-time hoodwinking has gone on to convince people that feminist = hairy, ugly, man-hating, repressed, humorless, frigid, etc. etc.
    I don't label myself a "feminist" not because of the stereotype, but because it's never occurred to me to label myself and my political beliefs (e.g. I don't accept the label of "social liberal" even though my beliefs fall generally in that line). I believe the general principles, but that doesn't mean that I accept its implementation in every way.

    For e.g., I fully believe in gender equality in my field (academic biological sciences), where >60% of postgrad students are female, but <10% of tenured University positions are held by females. But I would not support instituting a quota system to address this inequality. I believe that a cultural revolution is necessary, because a quota system would result in lack of academic respect for the females who do make it. After all, isn't respect what women are fighting for? This is shooting ourselves in the foot.

    Does that make me anti-feminist? As you can see, the label currently means absolutely nothing in the larger context of complex social interaction.

  2. #32
    Senior Member bluebell's Avatar
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    kyuuei started a thread on positive discrimination earlier today.

    My POV is very similar to yours, nonsequitur.
    ...so much smoke pouring out of each chromosome.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Habba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsequitur View Post
    I believe that a cultural revolution is necessary, because a quota system would result in lack of academic respect for the females who do make it. After all, isn't respect what women are fighting for? This is shooting ourselves in the foot.
    Yes, quota system is most retarded thing ever. "We want him for being proficient and we want her to fill the quota."

    People should just stop speaking about gender as if it's of importance. I always hated it when people make differences in types based on gender. "XXXX female that, while males this".

    Oh, and how I do hate those gender stereotype jokes. Not only are they unfunny, but they are also incredibly classifying. "All males are dumb brutes who can only mate or kill" and "All females are only interested in their looks and are incapable of logical".

    [/rant]
    "The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine."
    -Nikola Tesla

  4. #34
    Senior Member groovejet02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post

    "White middle-class girls at the elite colleges and universities seem to want the world handed to them on a platter. They have been sheltered, coddled, and flattered. Having taught at a wide variety of institutions over my ill-starred career, I have observed that working-class or lower-middle-class girls, who are from financially struggling families and who must take a patchwork of menial off-campus jobs to stay in school, are usually the least hospitable to feminist rhetoric. They see life as it is and have fewer illusions about sex. It is affluent, upper-middle class students who most spout the party line - as if the grisly hyperemotionalism of feminist jargon satisfies their hunger for meaningful experience outside their eventless upbringing. In the absence of war, invent one."
    --Camille Paglia

    Camille Paglia has obviously never been in touch with feminist groups in third-world* countries or even feminist groups of women in color in her country. Like someone said (can't remember whom), there is no one women's movement -- there are several. That said, there seems to be a lot elitism in the mainstream feminist movement. It seems white women who demand for gender equality seems unwilling to examine their class and race prejudice, thus continuing the oppressor/oppressed dynamic. On an international scale, this condescension is displayed when feminist rhetoric is used by the neo-conservative agenda of attacking countries such as Iraq and Afghanistan in the argument that Muslim women need to be saved.

    But even then, I find Camile Paglia's statement to be highly condescending in itself. White women may be cushioned by race and class privilege, but they certainly haven't completely escaped gender discrimination, however one argues that women have achieved a lot. Sexism is still alive and well.

    (By the way, for some reason I haven't properly researched, Camille Paglia is often labeled a 'woman-hating feminist', and tend to be popular among those who criticize feminism).

    *I hate this term but used it as a matter of convenience.

  5. #35
    Senior Member edel weiss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habba View Post
    Now how does it progress equality in legal sense, if women have their own law studies?

    I have always seen feminism to be counter-productive method of striding towards equality. Come on, how does it bring equality if you only just try to equalize the other side? It's like world's super powers chasing world peace by means of arms race.

    Then again, I live in Finland, which is a pioneer in the field of gender equality. My views may not apply to your world.
    I see what you mean. Looking at it outside the cultural context (as in, problems which still affect women universally), we still need special laws for women regarding -

    Rape, sexual harrassment - It's a fact that women are almost always affected, and the perpetrators are almost always men. Exceptions are rare.

    Domestic violence - As far as I've read, it cuts across most cultures. And women are disproportionally affected

    Abortion, laws regarding reproductive health.

    And perhaps, women have their own law studies because the laws, by far and large, have been made by men.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    It's always dismaying to me to see women say things like "Of course I believe [X/Y/Z basic feminist ideas] but I don't consider myself a feminist." It seems as if a big-time hoodwinking has gone on to convince people that feminist = hairy, ugly, man-hating, repressed, humorless, frigid, etc. etc.
    I agree. I've had far too many friends shake their heads at me and say, well, they do believe in equality, but no, they won't take it that far...

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsequitur View Post
    He was visiting Australia in a professional context. He also did not speak directly to the woman whom he was introduced to - he spoke to the guy (my supervisor) who was introducing them. That spoke to me of lack-of-respect and lack of professionalism.
    That definitely sucks. But then again, that's the way they've often been brought up. Imagine living in an environment where your father always tells your mother what to do, where the men of the family eat first, and your sisters do all the domestic work while the brothers are encouraged to study and have fun.


    But I would not support instituting a quota system to address this inequality. I believe that a cultural revolution is necessary, because a quota system would result in lack of academic respect for the females who do make it. After all, isn't respect what women are fighting for? This is shooting ourselves in the foot.

    Does that make me anti-feminist? As you can see, the label currently means absolutely nothing in the larger context of complex social interaction

    I guess that opinions regarding quota systems would vary with reference to the general environment. In some cases, they could be useful.

  6. #36
    Senior Member groovejet02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edel weiss View Post

    That definitely sucks. But then again, that's the way they've often been brought up. Imagine living in an environment where your father always tells your mother what to do, where the men of the family eat first, and your sisters do all the domestic work while the brothers are encouraged to study and have fun.
    Is this your personal experience? Just curious. As for mine, my mom always tells my dad what to do. Ha

  7. #37
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by groovejet02 View Post
    White women may be cushioned by race and class privilege, but they certainly haven't completely escaped gender discrimination, however one argues that women have achieved a lot. Sexism is still alive and well.

    I don't think she intended to argue that middle class white women never suffer at the hands of sexism. Read it again--she simply implied that, since most of them have never encountered any genuine hardship, they attach themselves with exaggerated fervor to the "grisly hyper-emotionalism" (great wording) of feminist jargon because they feel they should be doing something to make some kind of a positive difference. Paglia's point is simply a comment on these women's lack of perspective, not any kind of claim that sexism has been eradicated.

    Indeed, if you read her work, she is very open with many ideas about fundamental biological differences. She is a feminist in that she supports equal rights for women, but is smarter than the anti-male subgenre of feminism because she understands that biology, in certain life situations, precludes absolute equality.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #38
    12 and a half weeks BerberElla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    It's always dismaying to me to see women say things like "Of course I believe [X/Y/Z basic feminist ideas] but I don't consider myself a feminist." It seems as if a big-time hoodwinking has gone on to convince people that feminist = hairy, ugly, man-hating, repressed, humorless, frigid, etc. etc.
    Totally. I consider myself to be a feminist (non NT) and inspite of years of being given grief by men and some women over it, I don't see why I should be ashamed of it.

    Feminism isn't about man hating, it's about helping women, and all you have to do is look around the globe to see how much it is still needed in places.

    People from the west look at the west, where women have won so many rights and think their job is done and feminism is now redundant, or only the province of man hating lesbians, but they need to open their eyes wider.
    Echo - "So are you trying to say she is Evil"

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  9. #39
    / nonsequitur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edel weiss View Post
    That definitely sucks. But then again, that's the way they've often been brought up. Imagine living in an environment where your father always tells your mother what to do, where the men of the family eat first, and your sisters do all the domestic work while the brothers are encouraged to study and have fun.
    I'm not going to extrapolate his jerkish behavior to something that may or may not have happened in his life. He was in Australia, a foreign country. He was there on a professional purpose. He should've adjusted, or at least made an effort.

    Quote Originally Posted by edel weiss View Post
    I guess that opinions regarding quota systems would vary with reference to the general environment. In some cases, they could be useful.
    Perhaps in some instances. In most instances, I think they do more harm than good in the long run.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Habba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsequitur View Post
    Last week this guy from Israel came into our research institute and refused to shake hands with any women because they were women. Some people were like "omg, misogynist" and got all angry. I shrugged and said, "I wouldn't shake hands with him anyway, he's a Jew". *smirks*
    Quote Originally Posted by nonsequitur View Post
    I'm not going to extrapolate his jerkish behavior to something that may or may not have happened in his life. He was in Australia, a foreign country. He was there on a professional purpose. He should've adjusted, or at least made an effort.
    So racism is okay, but having a differing view of how to act respectfully towards women is not?

    I feel very awkward hugging men. Am I being disrespectful towards men, for not hugging them as I would like to hug a female?
    "The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine."
    -Nikola Tesla

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