[MBTI General] Help! ENTP with an ESTJ boss

[Sachetan]

Fellow ENTPs, any experience of this?

I'm a female ENTP in her thirties who's gotten pretty far with her ambitions. I've been working in a field of media for some years now. It's a managerial position with lots of freedom and power to control the creative production. Kind of a dream job, though I've been looking for something new for a while now.

I got a new boss, an ESTJ, and suddenly my work has turned into a nightmare. The guy's great with manipulating superiors but I can see right through him. I guess that's why he seems to be scared of me. He hasn't got what it takes to do his job: no creativeness or any idea of quality. All he cares for is cutting expenses and following anal rules. If that wasn't enough he's terrible socially: Macho, conservative, sexist. Now he's after my job 'cause I'm the only female there with any power and he dislikes me clearly. Well, a strong and opinionated ENTP woman must be the worst kind of a femme for a guy like him...

I guess this must be the worst combination ever. Any recommendations? Should I fight him or just run to freedom?

 

[theplacesyoullgo]

I swear that all ESTJs are scared of NTs. You can just feel the paranoia seeping through their pores, because they know that you're a million times brighter, wittier, and more interesting than them.

The only thing I have to say to an NT dealing with an ESTJ is that you will never get him/her to agree with any improvements you envision or propose. If you really need this job, my only advice would be to beat him at his own game. Ignore the sexist crap as best you can and do all of the banal tasks he assigns you perfectly. You'll probably be miserable, but honestly, trying to get him to see the light is never going to work and not worth it.

 

[Virtual ghost]

What are the chances that he will screw up completly in something?

 

[BlackCat]

In life I've learned to deal with ESTJs in non personal relations like this: Nod your head and don't say a word. Do everything he says. If he screws up it's his fault, you were just doing as you were told.

I'd like to add that male ESTJs are some of the worst people I've ever had to deal with, almost all of them I've encountered are unhealthy. So you aren't alone in this, I'm sure we all feel your pain. I swear there is a male INFJ for every healthy ESTJ out there.

 

[Sachetan]

What are the chances that he will screw up completly in something?

I wish. But with him being so anal that doesn't seem likely.

He's already done a lot of financial damage to the company in a short amount of time but found others to blame for his mistakes. I don't know how he does it but he knows how to handle the board members and the VIPs. He's sneaky and slippery. Type I've never met before in the creative industry.

 

[BlackCat]

If he's done damage then you should probably tell someone with authority. Give them raw facts. What can he do, fire you for doing something for the company?

 

[Sachetan]

If he's done damage then you should probably tell someone with authority. Give them raw facts. What can he do, fire you for doing something for the company?

He's got himself covered pretty well but there is something I might be able to proof. If it goes wrong then it's my head on a chopping block. Our superior is very fond of him for whatever reason.

But I guess it's worth a try. I couldn't work for someone like that for much longer anyway.

 

[Virtual ghost]

He's got himself covered pretty well but there is something I might be able to proof. If it goes wrong then it's my head on a chopping block. Our superior is very fond of him for whatever reason.

But I guess it's worth a try. I couldn't work for someone like that for much longer anyway.

Why don't you send the data/idea anonymously?


I presume there is a reason.

 

[Sachetan]

Why don't you send the data/idea anonymously?


I presume there is a reason.

My evidence relies mostly on what my subordinates have seen and heard. They won't have the guts to go public on their own. Then there's the question about loyalties. I don't want to jeopardize anyone's career for my sake. I can get another one but some of my subs cannot.

It's sure is tricky. I really have to think this through long and hard...

 

[Virtual ghost]

My evidence relies mostly on what my subordinates have seen and heard. They won't have the guts to go public on their own. Then there's the question about loyalties. I don't want to jeopardize anyone's career for my sake. I can get another one but some of my subs cannot.

It's sure is tricky. I really have to think this through long and hard...

If you work in a environment that has so many levels and such a complexity then I doubt that people here can help you much. Since we lack large amount data and this has to be planned and carryed through perfectly.
If you want this to work of course.

 

[miss fortune]

My best friend is an ESTJ, but I don't work for her

I have 2 ESTJ ex-bosses- I didn't particularly get along with either of them (hence the EX boss part). They were suspicious of me because I'm not very good at following the rules or anything and I spent most of my time trying to squirm out from under rules and regulations that I thought were silly.

Best I can tell you is just learn to be cautious about who you tell what to, because my ex-bosses played politics and were snoopy, and watch your back. Sometimes explaining WHY things would be better another way or so works, but that's if you have a healthy ESTJ boss, which I didn't.

 

[TheJimbo]

I swear that all ESTJs are scared of NTs. You can just feel the paranoia seeping through their pores, because they know that you're a million times brighter, wittier, and more interesting than them.

iSelfEsteem++

 

[mtaclof]

I swear that all ESTJs are scared of NTs. You can just feel the paranoia seeping through their pores, because they know that you're a million times brighter, wittier, and more interesting than them.
You'll probably be miserable, but honestly, trying to get him to see the light is never going to work and not worth it.

I agree with both comments, especially the second. For so long I tried to push back against types like this when they tried to stifle what I perceived as helpful discussion, usually about changing something that works acceptably, but not exactly efficiently, or changing something that's been in place as is for a long time.

The bolded part is so true for me. I went so long assuming that these types would have the same openness that I do, since I didn't have much experience with those who aren't very open, as they never seem to be a part of my circle. Life is much easier when you present what suggestions you can, and when they start to shut you out and ignore/otherwise discount your ideas, just stop. The harder you try to make them see the light, the more they pull the blinds over their eyes.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying all ESTJ folk are like this, it's simply a tendency that they have, and should all be aware of. Stubborn ignorance is never appealing, and it can present in all types.

 

[theplacesyoullgo]

In life I've learned to deal with ESTJs in non personal relations like this: Nod your head and don't say a word. Do everything he says. If he screws up it's his fault, you were just doing as you were told.

Totally agree.

I also agree with whatever's comment about watching what you say to others. Don't go through with any plan attempting to bring him down unless you're positive it will work (and even then...). Otherwise, he'll make your life even more miserable.

I've worked with three ESTJs - all female and all absolutely insufferable (from an ENTJ point of view, at least). All were upset with their position in life and took it out on people below them by becoming obnoxious control freaks, enforcing every banal regulation possible.

All I can say is just remember how much your asshole ESTJ is dying from envy of you.

 

[Bougal]

I work in the legal field, and I am around a lot of people that could be perceived as being very intimidating (attorneys and judges). It would be acceptable to be incapable of talking in front of them, but I engage in debates and conversations very naturally, and I conduct myself very professionally. Then, I talk to the narrow minded ESTJ that leads the youth group I volunteer for and I am tongue tied- - I became a sheepish little kid, but there is nothing about him that should intimidate me. I would expect that I could kick his ass in an argument or do some crazy little ENTJ intimidation. But I can’t. And it bugs me. He yells at me about stupid rules and finds out about all of my little moral slip ups, but completely overlooks all of the positive things I do (and I volunteer about 10 hours minimum a week). All I can do it just take his little pedantic, illogical rants and go back to doing what I was doing before his irrational rule tried to stop me. Bwah ha hah. I’m sorry you have a real ESTJ boss.

 

[theplacesyoullgo]

Then, I talk to the narrow minded ESTJ that leads the youth group I volunteer for and I am tongue tied- - I became a sheepish little kid, but there is nothing about him that should intimidate me. I would expect that I could kick his ass in an argument or do some crazy little ENTJ intimidation. But I can’t. And it bugs me. He yells at me about stupid rules and finds out about all of my little moral slip ups, but completely overlooks all of the positive things I do (and I volunteer about 10 hours minimum a week). All I can do it just take his little pedantic, illogical rants and go back to doing what I was doing before his irrational rule tried to stop me. Bwah ha hah. I’m sorry you have a real ESTJ boss.

YES. Absolutely AGREED to all of this, 100%. I have no idea why I turn into a little wimp in front of them, but I do. Maybe because I feel like I have to constantly analyze every little thing I say to them for fear they'll take it the wrong way.

 

[Bougal]

YES. Absolutely AGREED to all of this, 100%. I have no idea why I turn into a little wimp in front of them, but I do. Maybe because I feel like I have to constantly analyze every little thing I say to them for fear they'll take it the wrong way.

I'm glad I'm not alone. I thought I was going soft for a moment

I know three others really well, and they don't have the same power over me. The first is my uncle and we give each other hell, but it is done in a loving kind of way. Then there was a prosecutor from my mock trial team that was the valedictorian and is going to Harvard. She was cool and I enjoyed being around her but she was a bit intimidating because of her loudness and manliness. The third (low on the S) is the smartest man I know. He is a little factoid encyclopedia, and is invincible in debate, but he is far too overbearingly conservative for my taste. I like him a lot, but I can only take so much.

 

[Sachetan]

YES. Absolutely AGREED to all of this, 100%. I have no idea why I turn into a little wimp in front of them, but I do. Maybe because I feel like I have to constantly analyze every little thing I say to them for fear they'll take it the wrong way.

It seems we know ESTJs in our lives pretty well

I can feel he's suspicious of me and because of that I do watch and calculate what I can say around him carefully. And that's so sad since debating ideas should be the main part of our interaction. He even blames me for finding and repairing flaws in projects or trying to bring totally new elements and ideas in - and that should be my job!

It's clear that he needs a yes-team around him and that's the people he's now bringing in our team. I feel I'm soon surrounded by puppets!

 

[dga]

I left my last job to go freelance due to similar office politics. It sucked to go into the abyss of irregular income, but I am much healthier for it, albeit broke.

anyhow, if you really want to stay with this company, figure out what allies you might have in upper management. A good boss recognizes the abilities and strengths of the employees that make the company work. My problem was that the owner wanted sycophants around him. His problem is that all of the good people he had working for him left the company and his empire is noticeably on the decline.

Perhaps your situation is different. You won't be happy continuing to do crappy assignments under a dangerously incompetent supervisor, and if the management level just above him is charmed out of your control, simply go a level higher.

What you need to cover your ass is a paper trail. Get everything in writing/email. It is understandable that lower level employees might have fear to speak out, so you cannot rely on their words for backup. The guy knows he can push your buttons verbally, because there is nothing you can do save secretly recording the conversations to prove your story. if the guy has charmed hte highest levels of management/ownership in the company, you have a lto of work cut out to build a case. it might be wiser to consider that his sort of operating is rewarded and I would seek new employment before you are abruptly fired or the company simply dissolves.

 

[Gamine]

Sachetan, it sounds like you would make a great scapegoat for him in the future, especially if he is bringing in drones to the team to dilute the innovation and honesty. It sounds like you might need to play the political game and make sure your ass is covered. He is not a leader, and would not stand by his employees if anything went wrong. Even if he made a mistake somehow, I'll bet you could see a way for him to spin the blame on you or another minimally involved employee.

What are your options? You can't take him down directly unless you have evidence that he has not only goofed somehow, but that the board or his employees are looking for a chance to get rid of him. Politics politics bullshit politics.